Exploring the Sacred Process and Meaning Crisis with Dr. Vervaeke
Added: Jan 16, 2024
In this podcast, Dr. John Vervaeke and his colleague at the University of Toronto, Dr. Jordan Peterson, discuss their work on the edge of what they describe as the counter-Enlightenment. They are working to place cognitive processes that have gone astray back on their feet to rediscover the sacred and rectify the meaning crisis. They discuss the Veri Foundation, a non-profit organization that funds academic and public-facing projects, and the importance of personnel selection and stepping back to allow competent people to do what they do best.Key takeaways
The sacred is a process of self-correction and can plug into transcendent aspects of being.
Encounters with the sacred have a transformative nature and can lead to systematic transformation of one's orientation.
Insight is a crucial moment where the premises of an argument come together, and testing revelations is important.
Engaging in dialogue with different aspects of one's psyche is crucial for self-correction and growth.
Attention plays a key role in continual self-correction and the pursuit of truth.
Defining the Sacred
Peterson presents his idea of the sacred as a process of self-correction, with the capacity for self-correction to take on a life of its own and plug into transpersonal and transcendent aspects of being. He discusses the hierarchy of thinkers and the dependency structure among them, with some thinkers having more thinkers dependent on them than others. He also explores the relationship between the sacred and positive and negative emotion, calling and conscience, and the role of the serotonin system in emotional regulation.
Vervaeke adds to the discussion by presenting three dimensions of the sacred: ultimacy, axiological, and serological. He emphasizes the importance of love in the axiological dimension, as well as the transformative and healing nature of the sacred. They discuss the neoplatonic proposal of asymmetric dependence and the idea that the sacred is found in non-theistic traditions like Buddhism.
The Sacred as a Process
Peterson and Vervaeke delve into the idea of the sacred as a process, with Peterson drawing from the Old Testament Corpus to illustrate the dynamic relationship between calling and conscience. They discuss the reciprocal opening found in love and the transformative nature of encounters with the sacred. Peterson also explores the connection between the archetypal ideal and healing, emphasizing the systematicity of insight and the potential for systematic transformation of one's orientation and grip on the world.
Vervaeke adds to the discussion by highlighting the systematicity of error and insight, as well as the transformative nature of experiences such as baptism, shamanic death and rebirth, and the great doubt in zazen. They also discuss the role of Descartes' realization in the Scientific Revolution and the concept of contact epistemology.
Insight and Logic
Vervaeke highlights the emphasis placed by Dayart on both logic and insight. He explains that insight is a crucial moment where the premises of an argument come together. He also mentions the importance of testing the spirits to see if they are of God, drawing a parallel to the practice of prayer.
Confession and Revelation
Vervaeke describes the process of thought as beginning with a confession of insufficiency, followed by the positing of a question. He emphasizes the importance of faith in the essential goodness of being and its intelligibility. He also discusses the need to test the revelations that arise and the significance of humility in this process.
Encountering Hermes
Vervaeke shares a personal experience of encountering an archetypal presence, identified as Hermes, the god of interpretation and meaning-making. He describes the ongoing dialogue with Hermes and the integration of this presence with the Socratic spirit within him. He relates this experience to the Platonic proposal of holding creative tension between human finitude and transcendence.
Internal Family Systems and Dialogue
Vervaeke discusses the practice of internal family systems and parts work, where individuals engage in dialogue with different aspects of their psyche. He explains the process of entering into a dialogue with these parts, seeking to understand their normativity and cultivate growth. He also emphasizes the importance of self-correction and the ongoing process of discovering the truth.
Convergence of Logos and Mythos
Vervaeke reflects on the convergence of logos and mythos in his dialogue with Hermes and the archetypal figures. He draws parallels to the practices of theurgic traditions and the integration of psychological and philosophical realizations. He emphasizes the faithfulness to a process of self-correction and the ongoing pursuit of truth.
The Eye of Horus and Attention
Vervaeke discusses the symbolism of the Eye of Horus at the top of the pyramid, representing the aware attention that allows for continual self-correction. He emphasizes the prioritization of attention oriented towards the highest ineffable good and the dynamic process of attention that allows for the rise to the top.
Calling and Conscience
Vervaeke explores the dynamic interplay of calling and conscience, highlighting the importance of discerning between internal tyranny and genuine calling. He emphasizes the need to tread carefully and engage in dialogue with others to ensure the reliability of these manifestations.
Exodus Story and Depth
Vervaeke references the Exodus story of the burning bush as a metaphor for calling and depth. He discusses the significance of Moses encountering the burning bush at a time when things were not going so bad for him, drawing parallels to the dynamic interplay of calling and depth in personal experiences.
Morality and Meaning
The conversation then shifts to the relationship between morality and meaning in life. Vervaeke introduces the concept of morality as a commitment to a sense of duty born from something like the categorical imperative, while Peterson shares examples of individuals engaged in moral endeavors despite facing immense suffering. They discuss the distinction between subjective well-being and ultimate meaning, emphasizing the importance of connecting with something that has a reality beyond one's immediate existence.
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Meaning
Vervaeke shares insights from his lab's work on post-traumatic stress disorder and the role of meaning in healing from trauma. He discusses the importance of generating meaning in life and the potential for practices that restore a sense of religio-connectedness to aid in the recovery from trauma. The conversation highlights the power of collaborative empiricism and behavioral techniques in addressing mental health challenges and finding intrinsic meaning within one's life.
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