Israel/Palestine: Asking The Questions No One Else Will - Norman Finkelstein
Added: May 13, 2024
In this podcast episode, Norman Finkelstein shares his family history to provide context for his views on the Israel-Palestine conflict. His parents, both from Warsaw, Poland, survived the Nazi regime and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. They were liberated by the Russians and Americans and were staunch Stalinists who viewed the Soviet Union as the savior from the Nazis. Finkelstein did not have a conventional Jewish upbringing despite his parents being Jewish, and he later became involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict during the 1970s and 1980s.Shift to Truth and Justice
Finkelstein's focus shifted to truth and justice over time, rather than being pro-Palestinian or pro-Arab. He delves into the truth of what is happening on the ground in Palestine, particularly after the events of October 7th. He references the South African application to the International Court of Justice, which paints a horrifying picture of the situation in Gaza. The devastation in Gaza is described through staggering numbers, such as 15,000 children killed in Gaza in six months compared to 500 children killed in Ukraine in two years.
Gaza: A Population Under Siege
Gaza is portrayed as a small, densely populated area where half the population are children and 80% are refugees or descendants of refugees. The World Bank reports that 300,000 homes have been damaged or destroyed, leaving 1.3 million people with nowhere to return. Finkelstein emphasizes the calculated policy of making Gaza uninhabitable by Israeli officials, aiming to reduce it to rubble and dust.
Disproportionate Retaliation by Israel
When discussing Israel's response to the events of October 7th, Finkelstein acknowledges the barbarity of the act but believes that Israel's retaliation was disproportionate. He questions what Israel should have done in response and suggests that turning Gaza into a "howling wilderness" seems to be the goal. He criticizes Israel's actions and highlights the need for truth and justice in addressing the conflict.
Exploring Retaliation and Just War
Finkelstein grapples with the idea of retaliation and the concept of just war, emphasizing the importance of following the laws of war even in the face of aggression. He draws parallels to historical events, highlighting the complexities of responding to violence with violence. The conversation shifts to the need for both parties to sit down and resolve the conflict based on international law. He stresses the importance of holding all parties accountable for their actions and suggests the possibility of a Truth and Reconciliation process similar to what was implemented in South Africa.
Emotions and Justice in Conflict
The difficulty of separating emotions from the quest for justice and the challenges of finding a path forward amidst heightened emotions and historical grievances are discussed. Finkelstein reflects on personal experiences and family history related to the Holocaust, emphasizing the importance of never forgetting the atrocities committed. The issue of civilian casualties in conflicts is also addressed, with Finkelstein and the host discussing the ratio of Hamas fighters to civilians killed in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Contrasting Deliberate and Reckless Actions
Finkelstein highlights the differences between deliberate and reckless actions in conflict situations, pointing out that Hamas could have surrendered to end the conflict but chose not to. He contrasts Israel's goal of achieving a military victory over Hamas with the actions of the Nazi party in World War II, emphasizing the complexities of conflict resolution and the challenges of ending entrenched conflicts.
The Three Possible Goals for Resolving the Gaza Question
Finkelstein explains that resolving the Gaza question could mean ethnic cleansing, making Gaza uninhabitable, or completely annihilating the population. He mentions that Israel attempted ethnic cleansing during the first two weeks of the conflict but was unsuccessful. The second possible goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable, giving the people there the choice to either stay and starve or leave. The third goal is to eliminate the population of Gaza, similar to the biblical concept of Amalek, where every man, woman, and child is to be killed.
Israel's ultimate goal
The conversation then shifts to the possibility of a resolution if Hamas were to hand over the hostages and surrender. Finkelstein believes that even if Hamas were to surrender, it would not be the end of the conflict for Israel. He argues that Israel's ultimate goal is to make this war the last word and to completely eradicate the Gaza issue. He expresses skepticism about the idea that surrendering would lead to a better outcome for the people of Gaza, as it would likely result in a return to the status quo, with the population confined in a brutal blockade.
The Role of Iran
The role of Iran in the conflict is also discussed, with Finkelstein acknowledging Iran's support for the Palestinian resistance within the bounds of international law. The changing dynamics in the region, particularly in relation to Hezbollah and Iran's stance towards Israel, are explored. Recent events have shifted the perspective of groups like Hezbollah, leading them to no longer believe they can coexist with Israel. The lack of support for a two-state solution in Israel indicates a broader sentiment of existential conflict between the two sides.
Call for Social Transformation
In conclusion, Finkelstein reflects on the broader societal issues at play, highlighting the unfairness and inequality faced by younger generations. He calls for a radical transformation to provide equal opportunities and chances for the new generations, emphasizing the need for a more just and equitable society. He suggests that the struggles of the young people in Gaza resonate with the broader challenges faced by youth worldwide, who feel powerless in the face of entrenched power structures.
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