Jared Kushner: Israel, Palestine, Hamas, Gaza, Iran, and the Middle East | Lex Fridman Podcast #399

Added: Oct 12, 2023

The podcast was recorded on October 5th, before the Hamas attack on Israel, and then again on October 9th to address the evolving situation. Kushner expresses his heartbreak over the violence and suffering caused by the conflict and emphasizes the need for long-term peace and flourishing for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Kushner highlights the role of Hamas, a Palestinian militant group that rules the Gaza Strip and is designated as a terrorist group by the United States, European Union, UK, and Israel. He explains that Hamas originated from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and has a long history of attacking Israel. He also notes that Hamas has been responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people in Gaza, as their leadership prioritizes violence and maintaining power over improving the lives of their constituents.

The conversation delves into the connection between Hamas and Iran. Kushner explains that Iran supports Hamas and seeks the destruction of Israel. He points out that Iran uses proxies like Hamas to carry out its agenda and destabilize the region. He also mentions the importance of countering the propaganda message that the conflict is about access to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, emphasizing that Israel allows peaceful access to the mosque for Muslims.

Fridman and Kushner discuss the progress made towards peace in the Middle East during the Trump administration, particularly through the Abraham Accords. Kushner describes the approach taken, which involved strengthening relationships with traditional allies, eliminating ISIS, and imposing sanctions on Iran to limit its funding of terrorist groups. He emphasizes the importance of creating a positive paradigm for peace and economic development in the region.

Kushner also outlines the economic plan titled "Peace to Prosperity," which aimed to improve the lives of both Palestinians and Israelis. The plan focused on rebuilding Gaza and the West Bank, reducing poverty rates, and creating job opportunities. However, he acknowledges that the plan's success is contingent on good governance and leadership, which Hamas has failed to provide.

The conversation then shifts to the current Biden administration and its approach to the Middle East. Kushner criticizes the administration for reversing some of the policies implemented during the Trump era, such as funding the Palestinians without conditions and not enforcing sanctions on Iran. He argues that these actions have weakened the region and undermined the progress made towards peace.

In terms of future actions, Kushner suggests that the Biden administration needs to show strength and support for Israel, send a strong message to Iran, and ensure consequences for their destabilizing actions. He also emphasizes the importance of regaining trust with allies in the region, such as the United Arab Emirates, and continuing the momentum towards Israel-Saudi normalization.

Kushner continues by discussing the potential normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, stating that it would be a game-changer for the region and a nightmare for Iran. He believes that such a partnership would benefit the Saudi people from a security perspective and would be in the interests of Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the United States. However, he acknowledges that the political dynamics may shift, and it is important to let the current situation play out before resuming and concluding talks.

Reflecting on his experience negotiating the US-Mexico trade agreement, Kushner emphasizes the importance of trust and understanding in negotiations. He believes that leaders should act in their country's interests but also strive to build trusting relationships where people feel comfortable taking risks to help each other. Effective communication and the ability to find common ground are crucial in achieving successful outcomes.

When discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Kushner emphasizes the need for a secure environment for Israel and a better life for the people in Gaza. He suggests that the international community should unite behind Israel and hold Hamas accountable for its violent behavior. He believes that if the focus shifts from blaming Israel to addressing the failings of Hamas, a long-term solution can be achieved where the Palestinian people have a chance to live a better life.

Regarding the current conflict between Israel and Gaza, Kushner advises caution and smart decision-making. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the objective and acting appropriately to achieve it. He also highlights the international community's increased support for Israel due to the heinous attacks by Hamas. He hopes that Israel will maintain the moral high ground and effectively communicate its objectives to garner further support.

Fridman asks Kushner about his thoughts on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his ability to navigate the political turmoil in Israel. Kushner describes Netanyahu as a historic figure who understands the security apparatus and has a strong global network. He believes that Netanyahu will be strong and ambitious in pursuing Israel's interests while also being cautious and calculating in managing risks.

The conversation then shifts to the public discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Kushner acknowledges the support for the Palestinian people but believes that many are ill-informed about the facts on the ground. He suggests that directing anger towards Hamas and holding them accountable would be more productive in improving the lives of the Palestinian people. He emphasizes the need for an honest conversation and a paradigm shift where Israel's security is ensured, and the Palestinian people have opportunities for a better life.

Fridman asks Kushner about the role of former President Donald Trump in bringing peace to the Middle East and whether Kushner hopes Trump will win in 2024. Kushner praises Trump's foreign policy achievements, including the absence of new wars and the establishment of peace deals. He believes that Trump's strong leadership and results-oriented approach were instrumental in achieving these successes. He expresses hope that Trump will be reelected to restore order, peace, and prosperity to the world.

In discussing the future of the region, Kushner expresses optimism about the potential for economic growth and prosperity in the Middle East. He highlights the ambitious agenda of young leaders in Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar to transform the region into an economic superpower. He also acknowledges Israel's burgeoning tech economy and the potential for collaboration and connectivity in the region. However, he emphasizes the need to restrain Iran's destabilizing ambitions and create a security architecture to ensure the region's stability and progress.

The conversation continues with a discussion on defeating hate in the world. Kushner believes that hate can be overcome by building trusting relationships, listening to others, and finding common ground. He emphasizes the power of individuals to make a difference and create a better world by connecting with and respecting others.

Kushner begins by discussing his involvement in negotiating the Abraham Accords, a series of agreements between Israel and several Arab countries, including the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. He emphasizes the importance of building relationships and trust between leaders, highlighting the role of personal connections in diplomacy.

The conversation then shifts to the challenges of working on sensitive issues, particularly in closed-off regions like North Korea. Kushner acknowledges the difficulty of operating in such environments and the need to think outside the box to achieve progress. He also emphasizes the importance of actions over words in diplomacy, noting that leaders must be willing to take risks and make compromises for successful negotiations.

The discussion touches on the influence of personalities and personal relationships in negotiations, drawing parallels to Lawrence Wright's book "Thirteen Days in September." Kushner highlights the personal nature of diplomacy and the role of trust in building successful agreements. He shares anecdotes from his experiences in the Middle East, illustrating how personal connections and miscommunications can shape the outcome of negotiations.

Kushner also addresses the accusations of collusion with Russia during the 2016 election. He describes the surreal experience of being accused of something he knew to be untrue and the impact it had on him and his family. Despite the challenges, he maintains a calm and optimistic mindset, focusing on what he could control and the positive impact he could make in his role.

The conversation delves into the inefficiencies of government regulation, with Kushner referencing Neil Ferguson's book "The Great Degeneration." He discusses the need for a balance between regulation and private sector innovation, highlighting the negative consequences of excessive regulation. Kushner emphasizes the importance of results-oriented thinking and the need for more individuals with business mindsets to contribute to government.

The podcast also touches on personal aspects of Kushner's life, including his love for New Jersey diners and the impact of his father's arrest on his family. Kushner shares the challenges and lessons he learned from his father's experience, emphasizing the importance of focusing on what one can control and being a supportive presence for loved ones during difficult times.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of power and its potential to corrupt individuals. Kushner acknowledges that power and money can often cloud people's judgment and lead them to believe that certain rules do not apply to them. He emphasizes the importance of remaining grounded and humble, and the need for leaders to have good friends and engage in meaningful conversations to maintain their moral compass.

The discussion then turns to Kushner's work on prison reform, specifically the passage of the First Step Act, a bipartisan bill aimed at reforming the criminal justice system in the United States. Kushner explains the key provisions of the law, which include providing training and rehabilitation programs for prisoners to reduce recidivism rates. He also highlights the racial disparities in sentencing and the need to address them.

Fridman asks Kushner about the challenges of building trust and forming long-term relationships in Washington, given the prevalence of backstabbing and self-interest. Kushner acknowledges the complexities of the political landscape but emphasizes the importance of finding common humanity and maintaining integrity as a leader.

The conversation then delves into Kushner's role in Middle East peace negotiations, particularly his relationship with Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Kushner describes Mohammed bin Salman as a high-energy and intelligent leader who is deeply committed to modernizing Saudi Arabia. He praises Mohammed bin Salman's efforts in economic reform, marginalizing the religious police, and countering terrorism financing.

Kushner also discusses Vision 2030, Mohammed bin Salman's ambitious plan to transform Saudi Arabia's economy and society. He explains that the plan aims to leverage the country's strengths and address its weaknesses, setting specific goals and key performance indicators to measure progress.

The conversation continues with a discussion on the tensions between the United States and Saudi Arabia following the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Kushner reveals that he has spoken to Mohammed bin Salman about the incident and acknowledges the need for accountability and transparency. However, he also emphasizes the importance of maintaining a strong relationship with Saudi Arabia for regional stability and security.

Kushner continues by discussing his role in negotiating the Abraham Accords, which were peace agreements between Israel and several Arab countries, including the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. He emphasizes the importance of economic ties and cultural exchange in fostering peace and understanding between nations. He believes that the Accords mark the beginning of the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict and a return to a time when Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together in the Middle East.

The conversation then shifts to the challenges of achieving peace between Israel and Palestine. Kushner argues that the incentive structure for peace negotiations has been wrong, with the Palestinians receiving more money and land every time negotiations fail. He proposes a pragmatic solution that focuses on territorial contiguity, security, and religious site access. He also highlights the need for transparency and accountability in the Palestinian leadership to ensure that aid reaches the people and promotes economic development.

Fridman asks about the war in Ukraine and whether it could have been avoided. Kushner believes that if Trump had been reelected, there would not be a war in Ukraine today. He attributes this to Trump's unpredictability and pragmatism, which kept other countries on their toes and prevented conflicts from escalating. He emphasizes the importance of trust and private negotiations in resolving conflicts, and suggests that a mediator could help create a landing zone for peace talks between Ukraine and Russia.

The conversation then touches on Kushner's business ventures after leaving government. He explains that he started an investment firm that combines geopolitical expertise with traditional private equity and growth investing. He addresses criticisms of receiving funds from the Saudi Public Investment Fund, stating that he followed all ethical and legal rules during his time in government and that the success of his business will be judged by its returns.

Fridman asks about Trump's leadership qualities, and Kushner highlights his unpredictability, pragmatism, and results-oriented approach. He describes Trump as a strong leader who is willing to listen and act, and believes that his unpredictability kept America's enemies on their back foot. He also praises Trump's ability to build relationships and negotiate trade and peace deals.

The podcast continues with a discussion on the importance of leadership in resolving conflicts and bringing leaders to the negotiating table. Kushner emphasizes the need for trust and a clear vision of the future in order to move forward and end conflicts. He believes that the US president plays a crucial role in facilitating negotiations and fostering trust between nations.

Kushner continues by discussing his involvement in the peace deals between Israel and several Arab nations, including the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. He explains that the Trump administration took a different approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by focusing on economic development and regional cooperation. According to Kushner, this approach helped to break the stalemate and create new opportunities for peace.

Regarding the situation in Gaza and the role of Hamas, Kushner acknowledges the challenges of dealing with a terrorist organization. He emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the people of Gaza and the leadership of Hamas, and suggests that economic development and improved living conditions could help to undermine support for Hamas.

On the topic of Iran, Kushner expresses concern about the country's nuclear ambitions and its support for terrorism. He believes that the Iran nuclear deal, negotiated by the Obama administration, was flawed and did not do enough to address these issues. Kushner argues for a more comprehensive approach to dealing with Iran, including economic pressure and diplomatic efforts.

Kushner also shares his experiences working with world leaders such as Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping. He highlights the importance of building relationships and finding common ground, even with countries that may have conflicting interests. He cites examples of cooperation between the United States and Russia during World War II, as well as the recent collaboration between the US and Germany and Japan, former adversaries in World War II.

Throughout the conversation, Kushner emphasizes the need for understanding and dialogue in international relations. He believes that countries should not be seen as permanent enemies or allies, and that it is possible to find common ground and work towards shared goals. He also stresses the importance of listening to different perspectives and learning from others.

In terms of his approach to learning and problem-solving, Kushner emphasizes the importance of hard work, continuous learning, and stepping out of one's comfort zone. He advises young people to work hard, never stop learning, and be open to new experiences and perspectives. He also emphasizes the importance of doing the right thing and treating others with respect and honesty.