Ben Shapiro vs Destiny Debate: Politics, Jan 6, Israel, Ukraine & Wokeism | Lex Fridman Podcast #410

Added: Jan 24, 2024

The Government's Role In Societal Issues

The conversation delves into the role of government in addressing societal issues, with Shapiro highlighting the importance of local community involvement and the limitations of government intervention in solving complex social problems. Destiny, on the other hand, emphasizes the need for minimum thresholds in education and the provision of resources such as air conditioning and food in schools to support children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Societal Values

The discussion also touches on the historical trajectory of societal values, with Shapiro arguing that history does not always move in one direction and citing examples of moral regression such as communism and Nazism. Destiny challenges this viewpoint, highlighting the progress made in areas such as women's rights and access to contraception.

Trump vs Biden

As the conversation shifts to pragmatic politics, the hosts debate the performance of former President Donald Trump and current President Joe Biden. Shapiro praises Trump's foreign policy record and economic achievements, while criticizing Biden's handling of the economy and foreign relations. He also acknowledges Trump's divisive rhetoric but argues that Biden's rhetoric has also contributed to political polarization.

Destiny counters by highlighting Trump's divisive nature and his strained relationships within his own party, while also criticizing Biden's handling of certain policy issues. The conversation touches on the impact of rhetoric on political unity and the challenges faced by both administrations in addressing societal issues.

Economic and Legislative Accomplishments

The conversation then shifts to the economic and legislative accomplishments of both presidents. Shapiro highlights Trump's tax cuts and deficit spending, while Destiny points out the bipartisan infrastructure bill and other major legislation passed during Biden's presidency. They also discuss the impact of Co on the economy and the challenges faced by both administrations in addressing economic issues.

Foreign Policy and the Middle East

The discussion then turns to foreign policy, specifically focusing on the Middle East. Shapiro and Destiny debate the effectiveness of Trump's approach to the Middle East, including the Abraham Accords and the containment of Iran. They also discuss the impact of the Iraq invasion and the destabilization of the region, as well as the role of Iran in funding terrorist activities.

Iran and Diplomacy

The conversation delves into the question of engaging in bilateral and multilateral peace talks with Iran. Destiny advocates for diplomatic engagement with Iran, citing the potential for normalization and economic gains. In contrast, Shapiro argues that containing Iran through sanctions and deterrence is a more effective approach, given Iran's history of aggression and support for terrorist proxies.

Ukraine and International Politics

The conversation briefly touches on the situation in Ukraine and its relevance to international politics. Both guests discuss the complexities of the conflict and its implications for global geopolitics, highlighting the need for a nuanced approach to addressing the crisis.

Israel's Actions in Gaza

The conversation begins with a discussion on Israel's actions in the current war in Gaza. Both speakers agree that Israel's approach to the conflict is influenced by its own interests, which may not always align with those of the United States. They also discuss the need for Israel to minimize civilian casualties while also addressing the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. Shapiro emphasizes the importance of understanding the complexities of the conflict and the need for Israel to take strong steps towards peace.

US Foreign Policy in Ukraine

The conversation then shifts to US foreign policy in Ukraine. Both speakers agree that the US has a strategic interest in supporting Ukraine as a buffer against Russian aggression. They discuss the need for a clear and realistic end goal in the conflict, as well as the importance of honest conversations about foreign policy. They also touch on the challenges of negotiating an off-ramp for the conflict and the need for a balanced approach to funding and support for Ukraine.

The January 6th Insurrection

The podcast also delves into the events of the January 6th insurrection. Destiny asserts that Donald Trump incited the insurrection through his actions and rhetoric leading up to and on the day of the event. He highlights Trump's efforts to spread false information about the election, as well as his attempts to pressure state officials and Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the election results. Both speakers express concern over the events of January 6th and the implications for democracy and political stability in the United States.

The Negative Impact of Wokeism and Identity Politics

Shapiro and Destiny argue that wokeism and identity politics are a significant threat to Western civilization. They believe that these ideologies lead to a victim-victimizer narrative that is unhealthy for individuals and detrimental to society. They argue that it relieves people of individual responsibility and destroys the notion of an objective metric by which meritocracy can be determined. They also point out that wokeism and identity politics promote discrimination based on race in the name of correcting past discrimination, which they believe is dangerous and counterproductive.

The Impact on Society and Meritocracy

Shapiro and Destiny discuss the impact of wokeism and identity politics on society and meritocracy. They argue that every system based on merit has positive externalities, as the most effective and useful people are likely to succeed. However, they believe that wokeism and identity politics undermine meritocracy by promoting discrimination based on race, which they argue has negative externalities. They express concern that these ideologies are eroding the principles of meritocracy and individual responsibility, which are essential for a functioning and fair society.

The Role of Critical Race Theory

Shapiro and Destiny also discuss critical race theory and its role in promoting wokeism and identity politics. They argue that critical race theory perpetuates the idea that the systems of the United States are white supremacist and that success or failure is predominantly along economic and power lines. They believe that this narrative leads to a victim-victimizer dynamic and promotes discrimination based on race as a means of correcting perceived inequalities. They express concern that critical race theory is undermining the principles of meritocracy and individual responsibility, which they see as essential for a fair and functioning society.

The Potential Threat to Western Civilization

Shapiro and Destiny conclude that wokeism and identity politics pose a significant threat to Western civilization. They argue that these ideologies promote discrimination based on race, undermine meritocracy, and erode individual responsibility. They express concern that these ideologies are leading to a victim-victimizer narrative that is detrimental to society and are calling for a reevaluation of these ideologies and their impact on Western civilization.

Meritocracy and Institutions

The conversation continues with a discussion on meritocracy and the externalities of meritocratic systems. Ben Shapiro expresses his belief that meritocracy leads to the benefit of other people from the meritorious and excellent performance of individuals. He also delves into the topic of institutions, highlighting the importance of institutions in society and the need for individuals to participate in them rather than disengage from them.

Destiny shares his perspective on the impact of meritocracy and the need for individuals to engage in institutions. He emphasizes the importance of having mental safeguards for bad opinions and being aware of one's biases. Both speakers agree on the need to read a variety of sources to arrive at the truth and to engage in fact-based arguments.

The Role of Marriage

The conversation then shifts to the topic of marriage, with a focus on monogamous marriage and open marriages. Ben Shapiro emphasizes the importance of monogamous marriage as the foundation of a functional civilization, citing the role of marriage in the transmission of culture, values, and beliefs. Destiny acknowledges the significance of marriage, particularly in the context of raising children, and highlights the impact of societal trends on the decision to have children.

Empowerment of Women and Pornography

The discussion also touches on the empowerment of women through platforms like OnlyFans and the impact of pornography on society. Both speakers offer nuanced perspectives on these topics, with Destiny acknowledging the potential empowerment of women through platforms like OnlyFans, while also recognizing the potential negative effects of such platforms. Ben Shapiro takes a more critical stance on pornography, describing it as a waste of time and destructive to the human soul.

Rap Music and Truth-Seeking

The conversation also delves into the evolution of perspectives on rap music and the process of arriving at the truth. Destiny shares his evolving views on rap music, acknowledging the complexity of defining music and the importance of being aware of biases. Ben Shapiro emphasizes the importance of seeking the truth through reading a variety of sources and engaging in fact-based arguments.