Added: Dec 22, 2023
In this podcast, Jordan Peterson interviews Michael Malice about his book "The White Pill" and they discuss the catastrophic consequences of the Soviet era and the concept of appropriate social and psychological relations as an alternative to structured government. They also delve into the appeal of anarchism and the dangers of ideological thinking.
The Brutality of the Soviet Regime
Malice discusses the brutality of the Soviet regime and the dire conditions that emerged in the aftermath of the workers' revolution. He quotes Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman, who were initially hopeful about the workers' paradise in Russia but became disillusioned with the horrors and atrocities they witnessed firsthand. Malice describes the extreme housing conditions, communal eating, and lack of privacy imposed by the communist ideology. He also highlights the mass deportations, starvation, and the ruthless tactics used by the government to suppress dissent.
Hopeful Ending and Defeat of Depravity
Despite the horrors of the Soviet regime, Malice emphasizes that the defeat of communism in the Eastern European countries in the 1980s and the emergence of freedom in those nations is a story of hope. He believes that it is important to remember and learn from the history of the Soviet Union, especially as it was the number one foreign policy issue for a significant part of the 20th century. He also points out the lack of awareness and education about the atrocities committed under the communist regime, which he attributes to the promotion of binary thinking and the suppression of historical narratives by the media.
The Longing for Utopian State and Intellectual Narcissism
Peterson and Malice discuss the longing for a utopian state characterized by radical equality, which is often associated with the appeal of communism. They explore the idea of hyper-organized government providing for everyone's needs and the belief that such a system could bring about a paradisal state. However, they also highlight the dangers of intellectual narcissism, where individuals believe they can do a better job of organizing society and governing than others. Malice points out the inherent narcissism of intellectuals and their tendency to believe that they are the ones who can achieve the utopian vision.
The Valorization of Group Identity and Eradication of Individuality
The conversation delves into the valorization of group identity and the consequences of eradicating individuality. Malice draws parallels between the communist ideology and the current societal trends of dividing people into groups and making group identity paramount. He discusses the classification and judgment of individuals based on group guilt and the association of success with oppression. This leads to the eradication of every form of private property and the brutal treatment of individuals and their families under the communist regime.
The Prideful Intellect and Ideological Presuppositions
Malice and Peterson explore the prideful intellect and its role in the acceptance of ideological presuppositions that go starkly wrong. They discuss the tendency of people to be influenced by ideological theories and the belief that they could have shepherded in the promised utopia if they were in charge. They also touch upon the roots of this issue, citing the differences between Plato and Aristotle's approach to knowledge.
The Influence of Anarchism
Malice identifies himself as an anarchist and explains that anarchism, to him, is an approach to life that emphasizes treating people peacefully and recognizing the inherent illegitimacy of political authority. He credits anarchists such as Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman as the first critics of the Soviet Union, highlighting their staunch opposition to the oppressive regime despite being left-wing activists. Their vocal denouncement of the atrocities in the Soviet Union serves as a reminder that the fight against totalitarianism transcends political ideologies.
The Role of Individualism
Malice draws attention to Ayn Rand's advocacy for individualism, citing her belief that the individual should be the focus of one's worldview. He emphasizes the importance of individualism as a counterbalance to the collectivist ideologies that have historically led to oppression and tyranny. He discusses the significance of valuing individual freedom and autonomy as a means of resisting the encroachment of state control and surveillance.
The Dangers of Totalitarianism
The conversation shifts to the dangers of totalitarianism, with Malice and Peterson discussing the insidious nature of surveillance and control in modern society. They highlight the erosion of individual freedoms and the potential consequences of trading personal autonomy for perceived security and convenience. Malice warns against the complacency that comes with relinquishing personal agency in exchange for a false sense of safety.
Hope for the Future
Despite the grim realities of totalitarianism and the encroachment of surveillance, Malice remains hopeful about the future. He emphasizes the power of individual resistance and the potential for positive change through the actions of a small cadre of people who refuse to give in to the lie. He draws parallels to historical movements, such as the labor movement in Poland, where a minority of individuals were able to effect significant change through their steadfast opposition to oppressive regimes.
The Need for Vigilance
Malice underscores the need for vigilance in the face of encroaching authoritarianism, particularly in the context of modern technological advancements. He cautions against the normalization of surveillance and control, urging individuals to resist the allure of convenience and security at the expense of personal freedom. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing the potential for abuse of power and the necessity of pushing back against such encroachments.
The Legacy of Anarchist Activists
In revisiting the contributions of anarchist activists such as Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman, Malice highlights the enduring relevance of their opposition to totalitarianism. He emphasizes the need to acknowledge and honor the efforts of individuals who have stood against oppressive regimes, regardless of their political affiliations. Their courage and commitment serve as a reminder of the power of individual resistance in the face of tyranny.
The Individual and Self-Interest
The conversation then delves into the concept of individualism and the idea of pursuing one's self-interest. Peterson raises questions about the distinction between individualism and hedonism, as well as the notion of possession by lower-order motivational states. He delves into the psychological and neurophysiological development of individuals, emphasizing the emergence of a uniting ego identity and personality through neurophysiological development and experiential maturation.
Peterson explores the idea of self-interest and its alignment with the structure that would emerge if everyone were pursuing their self-interest simultaneously. He questions the appropriateness of pursuing social status as a form of self-interest and delves into the concept of integrity in relation to self-interest. He also draws parallels between Ayn Rand's characters and the portrayal of selfishness and individualism in her works.
Hierarchy and Social Structure
The host introduces the concept of subsidiarity, derived from the Exodus narrative, as the basis of Catholic Social teaching. He explains how the hierarchical structure proposed in the narrative emphasizes voluntary social hierarchy and requisite responsibility at every level. He highlights the importance of culture and the promotion of ideas, morals, and values in building and maintaining a stable society. The conversation also touches on the impact of time preference, where high time preference can hinder long-term planning and the importance of stable societal structures.
Pleasure and Motivation
The conversation then delves into the concept of hedonism, distinguishing between short-term pleasure and long-term gratification. The host emphasizes the value of pleasure in moderation and the need to avoid shame or guilt associated with seeking pleasure. He also discusses the neurophysiological system that mediates voluntary exploratory activity and the pleasure derived from moving towards a desired goal. The conversation highlights the importance of setting shared aims and engaging in meaningful pursuits that align with the optimal balance of social utility.
Anarchism and Voluntarism
The conversation continues with an exploration of the concept of anarchism and its relationship to voluntarism. Both Peterson and Malice agree that anarchism should be based on voluntary consent and the absence of force. They discuss the idea of subsidiarity, which involves a hierarchy of social interactions and the importance of maintaining voluntary relationships at various levels, from intimate relationships to broader social interactions.
The Importance of Personal Responsibility
The conversation then shifts to the concept of personal responsibility and moral integrity. They emphasize the importance of living a life that aligns with one's values and moral principles. Malice highlights the significance of being the kind of person one wants to be and the impact of individual choices on personal integrity.
Time Frame and Sacrifice
Peterson and Malice delve into the concept of time frame and sacrifice, discussing the idea of sacrificing short-term gratification for long-term fulfillment. They explore the notion of living in the present moment while considering the eternal implications of one's actions. The conversation touches on the significance of sacrifice in the Old Testament and the idea of sacrificing the narrow self for the transcendental self.
Transcendental Self and Eternal Truth
The discussion also delves into the concept of the transcendental self and its role in establishing voluntary relationships. They emphasize the importance of infusing one's work with eternal truths and archetypal realities, highlighting the lasting impact of work that reflects objective realities. Malice emphasizes the importance of iterability and voluntary ascent in shaping a meaningful and enduring tradition.
The Dangers of Utopianism
The conversation also addresses the dangers of dogmatic utopianism and totalitarianism, drawing on historical examples such as the Soviet Union. They emphasize the terrifying consequences of a dogmatic utopian state and the need to consider alternatives to totalitarianism and misery. The conversation highlights the importance of voluntary consent and the rejection of moral relativism that leads to a permissive society.
Autobiographical Discussion
In the latter part of the podcast, Peterson and Malice engage in an autobiographical discussion, exploring Malice's future plans and aspirations. They discuss the significance of personal growth and the pursuit of meaningful endeavors. The conversation touches on the importance of living a life aligned with one's values and the impact of individual choices on personal integrity.
