Joe Rogan Experience #2374 - Ben van Kerkwyk

The Labyrinth of Egypt

The podcast opens with an exploration of the legendary Labyrinth of Egypt, a subterranean complex famously reported by classical authors such as Herodotus and Pliny the Elder to surpass even the pyramids in grandeur. Ben describes recent geophysical studies revealing a massive 40-meter-long metallic object shaped somewhat like a tic tac, buried approximately 60 to 70 meters underground in the central atrium of this labyrinthine structure. This central chamber acts like an atrium in a mall, visible across multiple levels of the labyrinth, which itself extends at least 150 meters in one scanned section but is thought to be much larger overall.

Ben conveys the credibility of this finding by discussing the work of Tim Acres, a former UK military technology expert who confirmed the object's metal composition but could not classify its exact type. The object's unusual nature and metallic signature defy classification by known standards, fostering speculation about its origin. Despite the object's historic and archaeological significance, attempts to publicize this discovery have faced suppression by Egyptian authorities, hinting at political and logistical complexities around excavation and preservation amid water table challenges.

The Location of the Labyrinth

The conversation then revisits the labyrinth's presence in classical antiquity. Ancient writers like Herodotus emphasized the labyrinth's grandeur and complexity, with descriptions including thousands of rooms across multiple levels, vast open courts with dozens of columns on each side, and a maze so confusing one needed a guide to navigate safely. Despite these extensive accounts from the fifth century BCE upwards, the labyrinth has been conspicuously absent from mainstream archaeological literature, considered lost or destroyed due to centuries-long quarrying activities.

Ben highlights how modern archaeological expeditions since the early 2000s, such as the Matahar expedition and studies involving ground-penetrating radar and space-based scans, have corroborated the labyrinth's subterranean structures beneath sites like Hawara in the Faiyum region of Egypt. However, these scientific findings appear to have been suppressed or delayed in public release, partly due to water infiltration issues stemming from the Nile's changed hydrology after dam constructions, industrial agricultural practices, and bureaucratic resistance to costly preservation efforts.

Groundwater Challenges and Preservation Efforts

One of the practical impediments to studying and preserving the labyrinth is the elevated water table in the Faiyum area. Since the construction of dams on the Nile, particularly in the 1960s, the annual flood cycle altered dramatically, resulting in sustained higher groundwater levels that erode ancient stone structures from below. This ecological shift threatens to degrade these valuable ruins irreparably without massive and costly remediation projects involving groundwater diversion, dredging canals, and engineering new irrigation routes.

Ben describes the immense expenses and technical complexities such stabilization would entail, possibly requiring millions of dollars and decades to complete. Additionally, the competing interests of agricultural needs and heritage conservation place Egypt in a difficult position. Ben speculates that some of the reluctance to fully excavate or invest in the labyrinth's rescue may stem from political decisions prioritizing economic realities and tourism focused on well-publicized sites like the Giza Plateau, rather than uncovering a potentially transformative but less visitor-friendly underground complex.

Multidisciplinary Scanning Approaches

The episode delves into the impressive array of modern scientific technologies revitalizing archaeological understanding. Ground-penetrating radar, geomagnetism, very low frequency tomography, and electrical resistivity surveys have revealed complex subterranean formations consistent with ancient accounts of the labyrinth. Space-based scanning methods, including spectral and synthetic aperture radar technologies developed initially for military and resource exploration purposes, provide higher resolution data that confirm the existence of vast maze-like structures on multiple levels.

Importantly, Ben underlines the role of multidisciplinary collaboration involving Belgian, Polish, Egyptian, and German research groups over the last two decades. These independent studies have offered convergent evidence confirming both the labyrinth's layout and its partially concealed metallic objects—supporting historical legends and highlighting the potential for major archaeological breakthroughs if properly pursued and openly shared.

Precision Artifacts

The discussion transitions from monumental architecture to smaller but no less remarkable ancient artifacts, emphasizing a bifurcation in technological sophistication among Egyptian relics. Ben refers to this as the "tale of two industries": on the one hand, artifacts and tools fashioned with known primitive techniques—hand-formed pottery, mud bricks, and basic carving consistent with archaeological and iconographic records; on the other, a corpus of astonishingly precise and symmetrical hardstone artifacts whose manufacturing methods remain unexplained.

These advanced artifacts, especially intricately carved vessels made from granite, diorite, and rock crystal, reflect tolerances and geometric perfection comparable to modern aerospace manufacturing, with tolerances at or below thousandths of an inch and perfectly circular and flat shapes invisible to the naked eye. The contrast challenges the simplistic narrative assigning all these objects to the same dynastic toolset, suggesting instead a sophisticated, possibly pre-dynastic or even pre-civilizational technological knowledge now lost to history.

Hardstone Vessels

Ben elaborates on the provenance and dating of these exquisite hardstone vessels, which have been documented in pre-dynastic Egyptian burial contexts dating back thousands of years earlier than the established dynastic period. Despite early skepticism and accusations that these might be modern forgeries, subsequent laser scanning, CT, and X-ray analyses of museum-held specimens confirm their exceptional craftsmanship and ancient origin unequivocally.

The high degree of symmetry, the use of non-local exotic stones such as lapis lazuli (which originates thousands of miles away), and the inexplicable absence of corresponding tool depictions in surviving Egyptian art raise profound questions about the creators' identity, technology, and cultural context. Ben suggests these vessels serve as a "smoking gun" for ancient high technology, possibly from a lost or forgotten civilization predating mainstream Egyptian history.

Advanced Machining

An intriguing element of the discussion concerns the nature of the tools and materials used for precise stone carving. Ben describes microscopic examinations that revealed no traces of copper—despite the common assumption that copper-based tools and abrasives were employed—but instead uncovered unexpected elemental presences including titanium, iron, zinc, and tin. The discovery of titanium alloys embedded in tool marks contradicts the accepted historical timeline for metallurgy and material science, as titanium metallurgy is a relatively modern development.

Further hypothesis proposes a possible ancient utilization of nuclear or radiative machining processes, wherein alpha or beta particle emissions might have ablated stone surfaces with unprecedented precision, potentially leaving residual radioactive isotopes in the artifacts. While highly speculative, this emerging theory underscores the complexity and unknown nature of ancient technologies and demands multidisciplinary research efforts bridging archaeology, materials science, and physics.

Ancient Egyptian Symbolism

The conversation widens to explore the rich symbolic and mythological dimensions of ancient Egyptian culture related to advanced knowledge and esoteric technologies. Ben highlights depictions of "stargates" in the Dendera Temple, literally translated from hieroglyphs and representing celestial portals associated with specific constellations, suggesting symbolic references to otherworldly or interdimensional transit.

Images and wall carvings of staffs topped with tuning fork shapes—interpreted as symbols of power—alongside representations of large cylindrical objects reminiscent of power conduits, invite speculation about ancient understandings of energy, resonance, and possibly technologies now lost. The remarkable description of a large crypt at Dendera containing a golden version of these "staffs" further fuels theories of advanced ancient machinery and ceremonial constructs possessing functional significance beyond symbolic or religious practices.

Reevaluating Human History

Ben and Joe spend considerable time questioning the orthodox timeline of human technological progress and civilization emergence. They discuss evidence pushing humanity's anatomical modernity to as far back as 300,000 years or more, and some genetic studies estimating divergence times approaching 800,000 years. They suggest that advanced civilizations could have arisen during humid phases in Africa before desertification transformed the Sahara into its current arid state, leaving complex layers of hereditary technology and artifact inheritance for later cultures like the dynastic Egyptians.

This cyclical model of ascent and cataclysm challenges the linear, progressive historical narrative that archaeology typically embraces, proposing instead a pattern of rise, fall, loss, and rediscovery. Recognizing such a pattern could profoundly alter how humanity understands its past and potentially influence modern perceptions of sustainability, civilization collapse, and future resilience.

Monumental Stonework

The episode also tackles the logistical quandaries posed by the construction and transportation of enormous statues, obelisks, and columns. Ben details the monumental scale of these undertakings, citing examples like the unfinished obelisk in Aswan estimated at about 1,200 tons, and other statues weighing upwards of a thousand tons moved vast distances—over hundreds of miles—without any archaeological depictions of the methods used.

He critiques conventional explanations relying on manpower alone, wooden sleds pulled by ropes, and primitive pounding stones as either insufficient or inconsistent with the precision and scale involved. Comparative examples like the 18th-century "Thunderstone" moved by complex mechanical contraptions and iron spheres only further demonstrate the limits of low-technology solutions for such heavy loads, underscoring the likelihood of lost or unknown mechanical advantages or technologies available to ancient builders.

Challenging the Gatekeepers

Throughout the podcast, Ben reflects critically on the gatekeeping tendencies within academic Egyptology and archaeology, where dissenting voices and alternative theories often face dismissal, ridicule, or exclusion due to institutional inertia, professional elitism, or perceived threats to established historical narratives. He praises online platforms and independent researchers for democratizing access to alternative viewpoints but laments the conventional reluctance to embrace multidisciplinary approaches encompassing engineering, materials science, and alternative archaeology.

The main takeaway from the episode is the call to integrate diverse fields to assemble a fuller and more accurate picture of ancient human accomplishments, to question inherited assumptions, and to remain open to extraordinary possibilities supported by credible empirical evidence.