Joe Rogan Experience #2350 - Ryan Callaghan

Ryan emphasizes the unique nature of public lands in the United States, highlighting how they represent a national treasure unlike anything found in most other countries. He stresses that these lands are collectively owned by all Americans and provide unparalleled access to nature, recreation, and natural resources. The fight to keep these lands public is not just about preserving wilderness but about maintaining a legacy and resource that benefits everyone, now and in the future.

The Importance and Uniqueness of Public Lands

Ryan passionately explains how public lands are a uniquely American asset, often misunderstood or underappreciated even by many Americans themselves. He points out that unlike other countries, the U.S. has vast tracts of land set aside for public use, including national parks, forests, and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) areas. These lands offer opportunities for outdoor recreation, hunting, fishing, and simply experiencing nature in its rawest form.

He also notes that many people outside the U.S. are baffled by the idea that such lands could be sold off, underscoring the rarity of this public ownership model globally. Ryan laments that urban populations, disconnected from the land, often fail to grasp the value and significance of these spaces. He likens time spent in the wilderness to a vital nutrient or vitamin that people don’t realize they need until they experience it firsthand.

The Threat of Public Land Sales and Political Maneuvering

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the political machinations behind attempts to sell public lands. Ryan details how Senator Mike Lee of Utah has been a key figure pushing for land sales, motivated by a mix of ideology and political power. Lee’s efforts to insert land sale provisions into budget reconciliation bills were met with fierce opposition, but Ryan warns that the threat remains as long as Lee holds influential positions, such as chairing the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee.

Ryan explains the slippery slope nature of land sales, where even a small acreage sold could open the door to much larger divestitures. He highlights how the language in proposed legislation was often vague and broad, allowing for millions of acres of Forest Service and BLM lands to be sold, often under the guise of housing development. This, Ryan argues, is a shortsighted approach that ignores the long-term ecological, recreational, and cultural value of public lands.

The Role of Ideology and Religion in Land Policy

An intriguing and less commonly discussed topic Ryan touches on is the influence of religious ideology, particularly within the Mormon community, on land policy. He explains that some doctrines within the Mormon church promote the idea that land should be developed for profit and that leaving it undeveloped is akin to spiting God. This belief system, he suggests, may underpin some of the fervor behind efforts to privatize public lands, especially in Utah.

Ryan is careful to clarify that this ideology does not represent all members of the Mormon faith, many of whom are strong supporters of public lands and conservation. However, he points out that political figures like Mike Lee, who are Mormon, may be influenced by this worldview, which complicates the political landscape and adds a layer of religious zealotry to what is often framed as a purely economic or political issue.

The Ecological Crisis: Loss of Grasslands and Biodiversity

Ryan shifts the conversation to the ecological importance of public lands, focusing on the alarming loss of grasslands in the United States. He reveals that America is losing approximately two million acres of grassland annually, which is one of the most threatened ecosystems on the planet. This loss is driven not only by development but also by the encroachment of tree species like cedars and junipers, which alter the ecosystem and reduce biodiversity.

He explains the natural role of species like bison in maintaining grassland health by preventing tree encroachment through their grazing and physical behaviors. The decline of these keystone species and the degradation of grasslands have cascading effects on water tables, species diversity, and ecosystem resilience. Ryan laments that many people dismiss grasslands as “just grass,” failing to recognize their critical ecological functions.

The Checkerboard Land Ownership and Corner Crossing Controversy

One of the more technical but fascinating subjects Ryan discusses is the checkerboard pattern of land ownership in parts of the western U.S., where public and private lands are interspersed in a grid-like fashion. This pattern creates tiny “corner” parcels of private land that can block access to larger public land areas, leading to legal disputes over “corner crossing,” where hunters or recreationists step across these tiny private corners to reach public lands.

Ryan explains how this issue has led to prosecutions and legal battles, with some cases reaching federal courts. He highlights the absurdity of the situation, where crossing a few inches or a footstep can be considered trespassing. He praises groups like Wyoming Backcountry Hunters and Anglers for supporting those prosecuted and pushing for legal clarity. The ongoing legal fight over corner crossing exemplifies the complex challenges of managing public land access in fragmented ownership landscapes.

The American Prairie and Buffalo Restoration Efforts

Ryan shares his experience visiting the American Prairie, a large-scale conservation project in Montana aimed at restoring native prairie ecosystems and bison populations. Funded largely by private philanthropic dollars, including international contributions, the project seeks to reconnect fragmented lands and reintroduce native species to create a contiguous, functioning ecosystem reminiscent of pre-European settlement times.

He describes how the project balances conservation with public access, offering opportunities for hunting and recreation while maintaining ecological integrity. The American Prairie serves as a hopeful example of how private and public efforts can collaborate to restore landscapes and wildlife populations, though Ryan acknowledges the challenges and controversies surrounding land acquisition and local community impacts.

The Complexities of Wildlife Management in National Parks

Ryan delves into the nuanced and sometimes controversial management of wildlife in national parks, using Yellowstone as a case study. He recounts observations of elk and bison in the park that have become habituated to human presence, often congregating near visitor centers where hunting and predation are limited. This behavior raises concerns about wildlife health and natural behaviors.

He also discusses the “zone of tolerance” around Yellowstone, a designated hunting area outside park boundaries intended to manage bison populations and prevent disease transmission to cattle. Ryan explains the delicate balance between conservation, indigenous hunting rights, livestock protection, and public access. The management of these iconic species highlights the complex interplay of ecological, cultural, and economic factors in public land stewardship.

The Impact of Industrial Agriculture and Food Systems on Land Use

The conversation broadens to include the relationship between public lands, agriculture, and food systems. Ryan points out that while public lands cover hundreds of millions of acres, private agricultural lands exceed a billion acres in the U.S., and much of the nation’s food production depends on irrigation sourced from public watersheds like the Colorado River. He stresses that public lands play a critical role in supporting agriculture and food security.

Ryan critiques industrial monocrop agriculture for its environmental impacts, including soil degradation and biodiversity loss. He contrasts this with regenerative farming practices that mimic natural ecosystems, such as rotational grazing, which can restore soil health and support wildlife. The discussion underscores the interconnectedness of land management, food production, and ecological sustainability.

The Challenges of Political Polarization and Social Media in Conservation

Ryan candidly addresses the challenges posed by political polarization and social media in the fight to protect public lands. He recounts how the issue of land sales became highly politicized, with some people equating opposition to land sales with being anti-Trump or anti-conservative. This polarization complicated efforts to build broad coalitions across political lines.

He also highlights the toxic nature of social media comment sections, where coordinated bot farms and trolls amplify divisive narratives and discourage constructive dialogue. Ryan advocates for focusing on verified information from official sources and avoiding engagement with hostile or artificial online interactions. He stresses the importance of unity and persistence in advocacy, transcending partisan divides to protect shared resources.

The Power of Grassroots Mobilization and Coalition Building

Despite the challenges, Ryan shares an optimistic view of the power of grassroots mobilization and coalition building. He describes how diverse groups—including hunters, anglers, conservation organizations, outdoor businesses, and even firearms manufacturers—came together to oppose the land sale amendment. This broad-based alliance, cutting across traditional political and cultural lines, was instrumental in defeating the proposal.

Ryan emphasizes that public engagement, from phone calls and emails to social media campaigns and business partnerships, can influence political outcomes. He encourages listeners to remain vigilant and active, noting that the fight for public lands is ongoing and requires sustained effort.