Human-Kind or Human Evil with Rutger Bregman  | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

The Nature of Humanity

Bregman opens the conversation by discussing his belief in the inherent kindness of humanity. He argues that while humans are capable of terrible atrocities, they are also capable of incredible altruism. Bregman emphasizes that the prevailing narrative often focuses on the negative aspects of human behavior, which can lead to a skewed perception of society. He cites historical examples, such as the British abolitionist movement, to illustrate how small groups of committed individuals can effect significant change. Bregman believes that understanding the duality of human nature—our capacity for both good and evil—is essential for fostering a more compassionate society.

The Role of Billionaires and Capitalism

The conversation shifts to the topic of billionaires and capitalism, with Bregman acknowledging the complexities of wealth distribution. He points out that while billionaires can contribute positively to society, their existence often highlights systemic failures. Bregman argues that the current economic system allows for billionaires to pay lower tax rates than working-class individuals, which he views as fundamentally unjust. He advocates for a more equitable tax system that holds the wealthy accountable while also recognizing the need for effective governance.

Bregman shares a compelling story about the role of philanthropy in addressing global issues, particularly in the context of malaria. He credits Bill Gates for financing research that led to the development of vaccines, emphasizing that sometimes it takes the influence of wealthy individuals to catalyze change in areas neglected by governments. However, he also stresses that relying solely on philanthropy is not a sustainable solution and that systemic change is necessary.

The Impact of Perception on Reality

Throughout the discussion, Noah and Bregman explore how perception shapes reality. They delve into the idea that societal fears, often amplified by media narratives, can distort our understanding of safety and community. Bregman argues that while crime rates may be declining, the perception of danger can lead to increased anxiety and mistrust among individuals. This disconnect between reality and perception can hinder social cohesion and foster a culture of fear.

Bregman also highlights the importance of community and collective action in addressing societal challenges. He believes that individuals should come together to create safe spaces for moral ambition, where they can collaborate on solutions to pressing issues. By fostering a sense of community, people can counteract the isolation and cynicism that often accompany modern life.

Moral Ambition and the Future

As the conversation progresses, Bregman introduces the concept of moral ambition, which he defines as the drive to make a positive impact on the world. He expresses his desire to help talented individuals redirect their ambitions toward meaningful causes rather than pursuing traditional paths that may not contribute to societal well-being. Bregman envisions a movement that encourages people to work on pressing global issues, such as poverty, climate change, and social justice.

He acknowledges the challenges of this endeavor, particularly in a society that often prioritizes individual success over collective well-being. However, Bregman remains optimistic about the potential for change, emphasizing that history is filled with examples of individuals and groups who have successfully challenged the status quo. He believes that by redefining success and encouraging moral ambition, society can create a more equitable and compassionate future.

The Personal Journey of Change

Towards the end of the podcast, Bregman reflects on his personal journey and the changes he hopes to make in his life. He shares his decision to move to New York and focus on building a community dedicated to moral ambition. Bregman expresses a desire to step beyond the role of an observer and become an active participant in creating positive change. He acknowledges the importance of public commitments in fostering accountability and resilience in the face of challenges.

Bregman’s journey is not just about personal growth; it is also about inspiring others to join him in the pursuit of a better world. He encourages listeners to embrace their moral ambitions and work collectively to address the pressing issues of our time.