John Kiriakou: CIA's Secret Torture Programs, Mk-Ultra, 9-11, and Why Obama Threw Him in Jail

The Possibility of Coercion

Kiriakou opens the discussion by addressing the potential for individuals to be coerced into committing acts they would not normally consider. He references the MK-Ultra program, which was a covert CIA operation that involved mind control experiments, including the use of drugs and hypnosis. Kiriakou argues that the psychological manipulation techniques employed during MK-Ultra led to tragic outcomes, including individuals jumping from windows and committing suicide. This raises profound questions about the extent to which the government can influence behavior and the ethical implications of such actions.

He elaborates on the role of psychologists and psychiatrists within the CIA, emphasizing that these professionals were often utilized in operations to manipulate individuals. Kiriakou recounts a specific instance where a CIA officer was hypnotized for two hours, demonstrating the agency's willingness to experiment with psychological techniques to achieve its objectives. This discussion sets the stage for a broader examination of the moral and ethical boundaries that the intelligence community has crossed in pursuit of its goals.

The CIA's Transformation Post-9/11

Kiriakou reflects on the transformation of the CIA following the events of September 11, 2001. He asserts that the agency shifted from being primarily an intelligence-gathering organization to a paramilitary entity focused on counterterrorism operations. This change, he argues, marked a departure from the CIA's original mission of recruiting spies and gathering intelligence to inform policymakers. Instead, the agency became more involved in direct action, including drone strikes and covert operations.

He highlights the implications of this shift, noting that the CIA's focus on high-tech surveillance and military operations has diminished its capacity for traditional espionage. Kiriakou expresses concern that the agency's current trajectory prioritizes technological advancements over human intelligence, which could ultimately compromise national security. This transformation raises critical questions about the effectiveness and accountability of the CIA in a post-9/11 world.

The Japanese Diplomat Incident

One of the most shocking revelations from Kiriakou's story is his encounter with a supposed Japanese diplomat who attempted to recruit him for espionage. During a lunch meeting, the diplomat offered Kiriakou money in exchange for information, which he later discovered was an FBI agent trying to entrap him. This incident underscores the lengths to which government agencies may go to manipulate individuals and gather intelligence, even at the expense of ethical considerations.

Kiriakou's experience highlights the blurred lines between national security and personal integrity. He emphasizes that his only "crime" was speaking out about the CIA's torture program, which he did during an ABC News interview. This incident serves as a stark reminder of the potential consequences faced by whistleblowers and the dangers of government overreach in the pursuit of information.

The Consequences of Speaking Out

Kiriakou's decision to speak out about the CIA's torture program ultimately led to his imprisonment. He recounts how, after revealing the existence of the program in an interview, he became a target of the government. Despite the fact that he was telling the truth, Kiriakou faced severe repercussions, including a lengthy investigation and eventual charges of espionage. He reflects on the irony of being punished for exposing wrongdoing while those who perpetrated the torture faced no consequences.

The discussion highlights the chilling effect that such actions can have on potential whistleblowers. Kiriakou's case serves as a cautionary tale about the risks associated with speaking out against government misconduct. He emphasizes the importance of protecting whistleblowers and ensuring that individuals who expose corruption are not subjected to retaliation.

The Injustice of His Imprisonment

Kiriakou shares the emotional toll of his imprisonment, describing the experience as a nightmare. He reflects on the absurdity of being incarcerated for revealing the truth about the CIA's actions. Kiriakou notes that while he was sentenced to 23 months in prison, not a single person involved in the torture program faced any legal repercussions. This stark contrast raises questions about the justice system and the accountability of those in power.

He also discusses the broader implications of his case, suggesting that it reflects a systemic issue within the intelligence community. Kiriakou argues that the government has created an environment where truth-telling is punished, while those who engage in unethical behavior are shielded from accountability. This dynamic poses a significant threat to democracy and the rule of law.

The Role of the CIA in Torture

Kiriakou provides a detailed account of the CIA's involvement in torture, emphasizing that the agency's actions were not only illegal but also ineffective. He argues that torture does not yield reliable intelligence and often leads to false confessions. Kiriakou's firsthand experience with the agency's torture program allows him to speak with authority on the subject, and he expresses deep concern about the moral implications of such practices.

He highlights the psychological impact of torture on both the victims and the perpetrators, noting that it can lead to long-lasting trauma and moral injury. Kiriakou's insights challenge the prevailing narrative that torture is a necessary tool in the fight against terrorism, urging listeners to reconsider the ethical ramifications of such actions.

The Aftermath of 9/11

Kiriakou reflects on the aftermath of 9/11 and the subsequent changes in U.S. foreign policy. He argues that the events of that day were used as a pretext for launching wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have had devastating consequences for countless individuals. Kiriakou emphasizes that the government's response to 9/11 was driven by fear and a desire for retribution, rather than a thoughtful consideration of the long-term implications.

He also discusses the impact of these wars on civil liberties, noting that the government has increasingly encroached on individual rights in the name of national security. Kiriakou's perspective serves as a reminder of the importance of critically examining government actions and holding those in power accountable for their decisions.

The Psychological Manipulation of Presidents

Kiriakou delves into the psychological manipulation of presidents by the intelligence community. He argues that the CIA has a vested interest in maintaining control over the narrative presented to the president, particularly when it comes to matters of national security. Kiriakou suggests that new presidents, often lacking experience in intelligence and foreign policy, are easily swayed by the information presented to them by the CIA.

He describes how the agency uses high-tech tools and psychological profiling to influence presidential decision-making. This dynamic raises concerns about the extent to which the intelligence community can shape U.S. foreign policy and the potential consequences of such manipulation.

The CIA's Relationship with Congress

Kiriakou discusses the relationship between the CIA and Congress, highlighting the challenges of oversight in the intelligence community. He argues that many members of Congress are more likely to act as cheerleaders for the CIA rather than holding the agency accountable for its actions. This dynamic undermines the system of checks and balances that is essential for a functioning democracy.

He emphasizes the need for greater transparency and accountability within the intelligence community, urging Congress to take its oversight responsibilities seriously. Kiriakou's insights underscore the importance of an informed and engaged citizenry in holding government agencies accountable for their actions.

The Future of Whistleblowing

Kiriakou concludes the podcast by reflecting on the future of whistleblowing in the United States. He expresses hope that the tide will turn in favor of those who speak out against government wrongdoing. Kiriakou emphasizes the need for robust protections for whistleblowers, arguing that they play a crucial role in maintaining accountability and transparency within the government.

He encourages listeners to support efforts to protect whistleblowers and to advocate for reforms that promote ethical behavior within the intelligence community.