This Conversation Will Change How You Think About Your Entire Life

In this podcast episode, Mel Robbins welcomes Ocean Vuong, a celebrated poet, novelist, and NYU creative writing professor, to explore themes of shame, dignity, identity, and the search for meaning and purpose in life. Their deep conversation spans Ocean's personal journey from immigrant poverty to literary acclaim, the transformative power of language and storytelling, and practical strategies for reclaiming self-worth in a world riddled with structural and emotional adversity.

Defining a Meaningful Life

Ocean challenges conventional ideas about success and value, emphasizing that a meaningful life is not about proving worth to oneself or others but about "finding the power and the value where you are." This perspective invites listeners to recognize beauty, dignity, and agency in their current circumstances, irrespective of societal measures of achievement or upward mobility. He stresses that meaning can be discovered without the need to "escape" one's difficult realities, urging a reclamation of self that transcends hardship.

Language as a Tool for Dignity

Language plays a central role in Ocean's work and philosophy. He points out how language can be weaponized by corporations and political forces to debase and control people, especially marginalized communities. However, poetry and literature serve as revolutionary acts by disrupting normative language patterns and reclaiming its wonder and power. He advises listeners to engage intentionally with language, using it to construct new narratives about themselves that affirm dignity and resist internalized shame.

Understanding Dignity and Shame

Ocean frames dignity as living without shame and embracing all parts of oneself, even those society deems failures. Growing up in immigrant poverty, he witnessed the pervasive shame experienced by himself and his family, like the memory of his mother reluctantly returning tomatoes she couldn't afford. Yet, he observed that this adversity was not only painful but also a site of creative struggle and resilience. By owning their stories rather than discarding those "shameful" parts, individuals reclaim their dignity, freeing themselves from self-loathing.

The Burden and Power of Shame

Both Ocean and Mel share personal reflections on how shame shaped their lives—whether from economic hardship, family struggles, or identity. Ocean recounts how shame became a driving force pushing him toward education and creative work, despite failures and obstacles. He explains that shame operates on two levels: the ontological shame of being (identity-based, immutable) and the shame of actions (which can prompt growth). His mother's painful apology about their family's struggles embodies how poverty can be internalized as a personal deficiency, a feeling that many resonate with deeply.

Transforming Shame Through Language and Community

Ocean recommends practical methods to break cycles of negative self-talk, such as copying favorite poems or inspirational texts. This practice allows one to enter "someone else's head" and adopt empowering language daily, effectively creating a secular form of prayer or meditation. He also discusses a Buddhist psychological concept—"sequential thinking"—which recognizes that an individual can hold only one emotion at a time. Shifting focus from personal suffering to compassion for others can alleviate internal pain and foster a sense of connection and love.

The Hardest Thing in the World is to Live Only Once

This provocative opening line from Ocean's novel, The Emperor of Gladness, serves as a meditation on life's obligations. It contrasts the reckless "YOLO" attitude with a mindful approach that calls for living with care, responsibility, and intentionality toward family and community. Ocean explains that living a life that "counts" does not necessarily mean extraordinary accomplishments but fulfilling one's responsibilities and honoring one's values—especially for those facing systemic barriers.

Rethinking Success and "Making It Count"

Ocean critiques the societal obsession with upward mobility and "escape" narratives common in stories about poverty. His characters, and many working poor people in real life, often remain in the same socioeconomic strata yet live lives rich with love and commitment to one another. He challenges the myth that success must look like wealth or status. Instead, he honors the dignity in perseverance, caretaking, and community support, challenging listeners to redefine what "making it count" means on their own terms.

Navigating Impostor Syndrome and Institutional Power

Reflecting on his role as a professor, Ocean shares insight into the impostor syndrome deeply felt by many students, especially those from marginalized backgrounds. Rather than viewing this as a disability, he calls it an "impostor immune system," a protective discomfort signaling that belonging in elite spaces requires ongoing accountability and ethical conduct. He encourages embracing the tension of being an outsider as essential fuel for creativity and growth instead of craving easy acceptance.

The Impact of "Cringe Culture" on Creativity

Ocean highlights the crippling fear of humiliation prevalent among young people today, intensified by the permanence and wide reach of social media. Unlike past generations, today's students face the real possibility of being mocked worldwide indefinitely for mistakes or vulnerabilities. To counteract this, Ocean fosters a classroom culture that normalizes failure as crucial for innovation and healing. He redefines creative development as a liminal space between raw potential and mastery.

Embracing Radical Kindness, Grace, and Attention

Ocean believes the foundational debt we owe one another is expressed through kindness, grace, and focused attention, which transcend empathy alone. Empathy risks remaining passive or even enabling complacency, while kindness requires active care and intervention. He draws from a spiritual idea that we are "given ourselves" as a precious gift, and part of our purpose is to extend that gift through service to others, thus creating meaningful connections and healing.

The "Pebble and Ripple" Metaphor of Intention

Ocean urges listeners to reconnect with their younger selves—the "pebble" that began their life's ripple effect. He encourages individuals to honor the original intention and raw hope that propelled them on their journeys; this inner spark contains vital strength even when forgotten or buried under hardship. If uncertain about one's purpose or origin of drive, paying attention to moments of sacrifice, love, or awakening can help rediscover this deep well of motivation.

Grounding in the Present and Coming Down the Mountain

Contrary to cultural narratives insisting on constant striving upward, Ocean proposes a liberating vision of "coming down the mountain." This means grounding oneself in everyday life, in the realities and relationships closest to home, rather than chasing unreachable ideals of success or perfection. He describes his own life as balancing high literary achievement with the ongoing demands of family support, nurturing a profound sense of belonging and responsibility.

Joy and Connection in Unexpected Spaces

Ocean finds joy and community in his participation in a queer basketball league with his brother—an inclusive, vibrant environment that contrasts with the hypermasculine, competitive culture of his youth. This joyful "athletic carnival" exemplifies the broader theme of finding belonging and love in diverse and sometimes surprising places. His writing similarly celebrates the small gestures and genuine human connections that accumulate into a meaningful life, even amid struggle and loss.

The Central Question of What We Owe One Another

A recurring theme throughout the conversation is mutual obligation. Ocean's book explores the fundamental question: who owes what to whom? He answers this with kindness, grace, and attention—the simple but profound acts that sustain communities and restore dignity. This ethic of care counterbalances the alienating forces of poverty, shame, and social division, emphasizing the continuity of love as a central human gift.

Overcoming Fear and Ambition

In closing, Ocean encourages embracing fear as a sign of growth and daring, but never being afraid of oneself. He counsels taking risks and accepting humiliation as part of creative and personal evolution. This willingness to "scare yourself" opens the door to living authentically and fully, aligning with the larger conversation about holding complexity, pain, and hope simultaneously on the path toward a purposeful life.