Greg Lukianoff: Cancel Culture, Deplatforming, Censorship & Free Speech | Lex Fridman Podcast #397

Added: Sep 25, 2023

Lukianoff begins by explaining that cancel culture refers to the uptick in campaigns, particularly successful ones, since 2014 to get people fired, expelled, or deplatformed for speech that would normally be protected by the First Amendment. He emphasizes that knowing what people really think is crucial for understanding the world, and when speech is censored, it deprives us of that knowledge. He also mentions that preference falsification, where people hide their true opinions due to fear of consequences, leads to an inaccurate picture of the world.

Lukianoff argues that censorship does not change people's opinions but rather encourages them to only share their views with like-minded individuals, leading to group polarization. He believes that censoring speech is counterproductive and does not address the underlying issues. He also notes that activists who want to restrict speech often assume that people are more prejudiced than they actually are.

The conversation then shifts to the role of the First Amendment and freedom of speech. Lukianoff explains that the First Amendment is an embodiment of the ideal of freedom of speech, while freedom of speech is the application of that principle to all aspects of life. He highlights the importance of freedom of speech in challenging our limited knowledge and self-deception. He also discusses the connection between the love of science and the love of freedom of speech, noting that both are rooted in epistemology and the pursuit of knowledge.

Lukianoff delves into the challenges of protecting freedom of speech on college campuses, which should be a battleground of ideas. He mentions that FIRE ranks colleges based on their commitment to free speech and provides insights into their policies and practices. He emphasizes the need for viewpoint diversity and the dangers of a lack thereof, as it leads to tribal thinking and the suppression of dissenting opinions.

The conversation then explores cancel culture from both the left and the right. Lukianoff acknowledges that cancel culture is more prevalent on the left, particularly in academia, but also highlights instances of cancel culture coming from the right. He mentions attempts to ban certain topics in higher education and the need to make a case against such teaching rather than outright banning it. He also discusses the tension between teaching religion in public schools and the First Amendment, noting that it is challenging to teach religion without offending someone's beliefs.

Lukianoff discusses the role of education in shaping culture and the importance of addressing the issues of cancel culture and censorship in higher education. He mentions the hyper-bureaucratization of universities and the involvement of administrators in encouraging deplatforming and censorship. He argues that investigations should focus on whether administrators facilitated or stopped these disruptions.

The conversation continues with a discussion of FIRE's college free speech rankings. Lukianoff explains that the rankings assess colleges based on their policies, instances of deplatforming, and student perspectives on freedom of speech. He highlights the top-ranked schools, such as Michigan Technological University and Auburn University, and the bottom-ranked schools, including Harvard and Georgetown University. He emphasizes the need to push back against deplatforming and the involvement of administrators in creating these problems.

Lukianoff continues by addressing the issue of hyper bureaucratization in higher education and how it contributes to the problems of cancel culture. He suggests that reducing the size of administration could help alleviate this issue. However, he also notes that faculty members can also be perpetrators of cancel culture, as seen in the increasing number of professors demanding their colleagues be punished or fired.

The conversation then turns to the rise of cancel culture and the attempts to get professors fired. Lukianoff highlights that these attempts were initially led by administrators but have increasingly been driven by students and fellow professors. He expresses disappointment in the lack of integrity among some professors who publicly sign petitions to get their colleagues fired while privately expressing sympathy for them.

They discuss the importance of integrity and the need for more individuals, both faculty and administrators, to stand up for freedom of speech. Lukianoff emphasizes that there is a hunger for this kind of leadership and that universities should make clear declarations valuing freedom of expression.

They also touch on the role of social media in shaping public discourse and the need for better incentives to promote high-quality debate. Lukianoff suggests that individuals who engage in rigorous, well-reasoned arguments should be rewarded, regardless of their ideological stance.

The conversation then shifts to Lukianoff and Ricky Schlatter's book, "The Coddling of the American Mind," which explores the impact of cancel culture and offers solutions to fix it. They discuss the concept of rhetorical fortresses, which are tactics used to avoid engaging with opposing arguments. Lukianoff highlights the tactic of "what aboutism," where individuals deflect criticism by bringing up the alleged wrongdoing of the other side.

They also discuss the tactics of straw-manning and steel-manning, which involve misrepresenting or accurately representing the opposing perspective, respectively. Lukianoff explains that these tactics can hinder the pursuit of truth and waste time by focusing on destroying opponents rather than engaging in meaningful debate.

The conversation then delves into the LA Times article that labeled Lukianoff and FIRE as right-wing. Lukianoff refutes this claim, highlighting the organization's defense of viewpoints across the political spectrum. He also criticizes the hypocrisy and projection often seen in cancel culture debates, where individuals accuse others of being hypocrites without doing proper research.

They continue by discussing the impact of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs in academia. Lukianoff acknowledges that some individuals involved in DEI genuinely want to foster understanding and compassion. However, he argues that certain ideological assumptions underlying these programs can actually divide people rather than unite them.

Lukianoff emphasizes the need for more socioeconomic diversity in higher education and criticizes the implementation of DEI statements as a political litmus test. He argues that these statements effectively eliminate individuals based on their political beliefs and hinder the pursuit of true diversity of thought.

Lukianoff continues by discussing the concept of cancel culture and its impact on free speech. He explains that cancel culture is a form of social punishment where individuals are ostracized or boycotted for expressing unpopular or controversial opinions. He argues that cancel culture stifles open dialogue and creates a climate of fear and self-censorship.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of deplatforming, which refers to the removal of individuals or groups from online platforms. Lukianoff acknowledges that deplatforming can be an effective tool to combat hate speech and extremism, but he also warns of the dangers of using it as a means to silence dissenting voices. He emphasizes the importance of allowing all perspectives to be heard, even if they are offensive or disagreeable.

The discussion then delves into the issue of censorship, particularly in academic settings. Lukianoff highlights the lack of viewpoint diversity in academia, with many departments having a majority of left-leaning professors. He argues that this lack of diversity leads to group polarization and the suppression of alternative viewpoints. Lukianoff also addresses the rise of self-censorship among students and professors, particularly among conservatives who fear backlash for expressing their opinions.

The conversation then explores the role of cancel culture in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. Lukianoff cites the case of Jennifer Sey, a former vice president of Levi's, who faced backlash for advocating for the reopening of schools. He argues that cancel culture hinders open discussion and prevents the exploration of different perspectives, which can ultimately impede progress and understanding.

The discussion then turns to the concept of hate speech and its relationship to freedom of speech. Lukianoff argues that hate speech is a subjective category that should not be used as a justification for censorship. He asserts that freedom of speech includes the right to express offensive or unpopular opinions, as long as they do not incite violence or harm others.

The conversation continues with a discussion on potential solutions to address the issues surrounding cancel culture, deplatforming, and censorship. Lukianoff emphasizes the importance of cultivating curiosity and intellectual humility, as well as promoting empathy and understanding. He also suggests that documentary filmmakers and biographers often do a better job of conducting conversations with controversial figures, as they invest time in understanding their perspectives and providing historical context.

Lukianoff continues by discussing the importance of free speech and its role in fostering a healthy society. He believes that free speech allows for the exchange of ideas, the discovery of truth, and the progress of society. However, he acknowledges that there are challenges in the current era of social media and cancel culture.

He expresses optimism about the potential of social media to be a powerful tool for positive change. Lukianoff argues that attempts to regulate or ban certain platforms or age groups from the internet are futile and that society needs to adapt culturally to the realities of social media. He believes that social media has the potential to be an engine for disconfirmation and problem-solving, similar to the impact of the printing press on the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment.

Lukianoff discusses the unique nature of Twitter and its ability to capture the collective unconscious of society in real time. He acknowledges that Twitter can be both a source of joy and a platform for canceling and cruelty. He emphasizes the need for cultural adjustments and the establishment of trusted authorities in the social media space.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of depression and mental health. Lukianoff shares his personal experience with depression and how he overcame it through cognitive behavioral therapy. He highlights the importance of being authentic and the negative impact of censorship on mental health. He also discusses the pain of cancellation and the cruelty that can arise from social media interactions.

Lukianoff expresses hope that people are becoming tired of the current state of cancel culture and censorship. He believes that there is a desire for authenticity and a need for trusted authorities. He suggests that creating alternative streams for creative problem-solving and education, such as Khan Academy, could be a step towards positive change. He also calls for the reform of elite higher education institutions to address class privilege and promote diversity.