Ed Barnhart: Maya, Aztec, Inca, and Lost Civilizations of South America | Lex Fridman Podcast #446

Added: Oct 1, 2024

Lost Civilizations

Barnhart begins by discussing the existence of lost civilizations that remain undiscovered. He references recent archaeological findings, such as Göbekli Tepe and discoveries in the Amazon, which have unveiled civilizations previously unknown to researchers. Barnhart emphasizes that the Amazon jungle likely conceals evidence of ancient societies, particularly geoglyphs and mound groups that suggest complex social structures. He points out that the average person often envisions civilization as resembling Rome, but he argues that civilizations in the Amazon would not fit that mold due to the scarcity of stone and the reliance on organic materials like dirt and trees. He suggests that the base of the Andes, where stone is more accessible, holds significant potential for future discoveries.

Transition from Hunter-Gatherers to Settled Societies

Barnhart elaborates on the transition from nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyles to settled agricultural societies. He explains that for most of human existence, people lived in nomadic circles, moving seasonally based on resource availability. However, around 12,000 years ago, as the last Ice Age ended, significant environmental changes forced humans to adapt. In the Americas, the extinction of large game animals like mammoths and bison led to a greater reliance on gathering, which eventually prompted the domestication of plants. This shift allowed for the establishment of permanent communities, marking the beginning of civilization. Barnhart emphasizes that the ability to stay in one place and cultivate crops was a crucial trigger for the development of complex societies.

First Humans in the Americas

The conversation shifts to the migration of the first humans to the Americas. Barnhart outlines traditional theories that suggest nomadic hunters crossed a land bridge from Asia during the Ice Age, following game animals. However, advancements in DNA research have pushed back the timeline of this migration, indicating that humans may have arrived as early as 30,000 to 60,000 years ago. He notes that the genetic evidence suggests a single origin for Native American populations, tracing back to Siberia. Barnhart posits that the migration was likely a series of big leaps rather than a gradual process, with early groups becoming isolated and developing distinct cultures over time.

South America as a Cradle of Civilization

Barnhart highlights the significance of South America as a cradle of civilization, often overlooked in favor of regions like Egypt and Mesopotamia. He points to archaeological sites along the Peruvian coast, such as Caral, which date back to around 3200 BCE, as evidence of early complex societies. These sites feature large stone pyramids and temples, indicating advanced architectural skills. He emphasizes that while Egypt has about 140 known pyramids, Peru has thousands, many of which remain undiscovered due to their construction from perishable materials like adobe. Barnhart also discusses the importance of understanding the motivations behind pyramid construction, suggesting that they served both practical purposes, such as waste management, and symbolic functions, representing a desire for permanence and remembrance.

Barnhart concludes that the early civilizations in South America were diverse and complex, with some relying on fishing rather than agriculture. He argues that the development of civilization was not solely dependent on farming but also involved trade and resource management. He suggests that the Amazon may have been a significant center for early religious practices and that the oldest pottery in the Americas has been found there, indicating a rich cultural history that predates many well-known civilizations.

Pyramids and Religious Practices

Barnhart discusses the significance of pyramids in South America, often referred to as temples, noting a lack of clear evidence regarding their religious practices or iconography. The earliest significant religious iconography appears with the Shaveen culture around 1800 BCE, located in the Andes. This culture's main temple is strategically positioned as a point of connection between the Amazon and the coast. The iconography found there features animals like jaguars, snakes, and crocodiles, which are native to the Amazon, suggesting that religious ideas may have originated in that region. Barnhart emphasizes the challenge of interpreting archaeological findings, as the ideas and beliefs of ancient peoples are often elusive and difficult to reconstruct.

Monotheism in South American Religions

Barnhart proposes that religion in South America may have been more monotheistic than traditionally believed. He introduces the concept of a Fang deity, a creator figure that he argues has influenced various Andean cultures over thousands of years. This deity, known by different names in different cultures, is associated with jaguars and is depicted in various forms throughout the art of these civilizations. Barnhart suggests that early archaeologists, influenced by their own cultural backgrounds, may have misinterpreted the evidence, leading to the assumption that these cultures had pantheons of gods. Instead, he argues for a more unified religious concept centered around the Fang deity, which manifests in different forms across cultures.

The Role of Shamanism

The discussion of shamanism highlights its integral role in the spiritual practices of ancient South American cultures. Barnhart explains that shamanism often involves rituals that connect practitioners with the spirit world. He notes that the Fang deity is involved in healing ceremonies, which sometimes include sexual acts. The connection between shamanism and the Fang deity is illustrated through the use of music and hallucinogens, which are believed to facilitate communication with spirits. Barnhart emphasizes that these practices were not just about individual experiences but were deeply embedded in the social and cultural fabric of the communities.

Ayahuasca and Spiritual Practices

Barnhart discusses ayahuasca, a traditional hallucinogenic brew used in Amazonian shamanic practices. He suggests that the use of ayahuasca and other hallucinogens may have played a significant role in the development of religious ideas and practices in the region. He draws parallels between the experiences induced by ayahuasca and the transformative states sought by shamans, suggesting that these substances allowed individuals to access other realms of consciousness. He also mentions the historical context of ayahuasca use, indicating that it has been a part of Amazonian culture for thousands of years, contributing to the spiritual and religious landscape.

The Lost City of Z

The concept of the Lost City of Z is explored in relation to the broader idea of advanced civilizations in the Amazon. Barnhart distinguishes between the Lost City of Z, associated with the Shingu region of Brazil, and El Dorado, which is linked to Colombia. He asserts that evidence of civilizations in the Amazon exists, including geometric earthworks and anthropogenic landscapes, which indicate that large populations once thrived in the region. Barnhart highlights the challenges of archaeological work in the Amazon, where dense vegetation often obscures evidence of past human activity. He notes that recent developments, such as the construction of highways, have led to the discovery of more archaeological sites, revealing the extent of ancient civilizations that were previously hidden by the rainforest.

Uncontacted Tribes

Barnhart highlights the existence of uncontacted tribes in the Amazon, emphasizing that these groups remain largely isolated from modern society. He notes that while we have some knowledge of their locations, responsible policies in countries like Ecuador prevent contact to protect these tribes. He describes these tribes as appearing "frozen in time," having adapted to their environment in ways that minimize the need for technological advancement. Barnhart mentions the propensity for violence among these tribes, particularly the Yanomami, who are known for their feuds and aggressive behavior. He explains that their culture often associates illness with spiritual causes, leading to cycles of violence as tribes seek retribution for perceived wrongs. This cultural norm of violence is contrasted with the peaceful nature of modern society, suggesting that humans have a primal capacity for aggression that can be triggered under certain circumstances.

The Maya Civilization

The conversation shifts to the Maya civilization, which Barnhart describes as a complex society that arose in Mesoamerica. He discusses the challenges of studying the Maya due to the dense jungles they inhabited, which have made archaeological exploration difficult. Barnhart explains that the Maya civilization is often divided into different periods: the preclassic, classic, and postclassic. The classic period is characterized by the rise of powerful city-states and dynasties, with a focus on kingship and divine right. He notes that the Maya had a sophisticated understanding of astronomy and mathematics, which they used to create an elaborate calendar system.

Barnhart also touches on the interactions between the Maya and other cultures, such as the Olmec and the Aztec. He explains that the Maya borrowed religious ideas from the Olmec and that their civilization was not static but rather dynamic, with influences flowing between different cultures. The Maya's relationship with war and violence is also discussed, with Barnhart noting that while they engaged in warfare, it was often ritualistic and tied to their religious beliefs.

The Complexity of the Mayan Calendar

The discussion of the Mayan calendar reveals its complexity, consisting of three main components: the Tzolk'in (a 260-day calendar), the Haab' (a 365-day solar calendar), and the Long Count (a linear count of days). Barnhart explains that the Tzolk'in is based on the human gestation period and is deeply intertwined with Maya spirituality, as each day is associated with specific spirits. The Haab' is a more conventional solar calendar, while the Long Count allows the Maya to track longer periods of time. Barnhart emphasizes the mathematical precision of the Mayan calendar and its cyclical nature, which reflects the Maya's understanding of time as a series of repeating cycles.

He also discusses the significance of the Long Count in relation to the end of the world predictions associated with 2012, explaining that the Maya viewed the end of a cycle as a time for renewal rather than destruction. Barnhart argues that the Maya's understanding of time and cycles was integral to their worldview and societal organization.

Flood Myths Across Cultures

The podcast continues with a discussion of flood myths, which are prevalent in many cultures around the world. Barnhart suggests that these myths may stem from the collective memory of rising sea levels at the end of the Ice Age, which caused coastal communities to be submerged. He posits that the shared experience of displacement and loss may have led to the development of flood myths across different civilizations. This idea connects to the broader theme of how ancient cultures interpreted and recorded their experiences of natural disasters and environmental changes.

The Aztec Empire

The discussion continues with the Aztec Empire, highlighting that without the Spanish conquest, the Aztecs might have continued to dominate their neighbors. However, their rule was characterized by oppression and fear, leading to widespread resentment among the people they governed. This discontent would likely have resulted in eventual revolts, suggesting that their empire would not have lasted indefinitely. In contrast, the Inca Empire is portrayed as a more community-oriented society that, despite its violent beginnings, developed a system that ensured the well-being of its subjects. The Inca built extensive infrastructure, including agricultural terraces and a vast road network, which facilitated trade and communication across their empire. They were known for integrating conquered peoples into their society, providing them with resources and security, which fostered loyalty and stability.

The Inca Empire

The origins of the Inca Empire are traced back to the mid-1200s, with the first significant ruler, Pachacuti, who expanded the empire significantly. The Inca utilized a sophisticated record-keeping system involving quipus, which helped manage their vast population and resources. Barnhart suggests that if the Inca had faced the Aztecs, they would have emerged victorious due to their superior organization and resources.

Barnhart then discusses the impressive stonework of the Inca, noting that the precise fitting of stones in their architecture remains a mystery. He speculates that they may have used acids to fuse stones together, a theory he plans to investigate further through core sampling. He emphasizes the need for sophisticated techniques to manage the large populations within the Inca Empire, which at its height numbered around 10 million people.

Early Humans in North America

The conversation shifts to early humans in North America, where Barnhart explains that the first significant cultures were the mound builders, particularly in the Mississippi region. These societies, often referred to as the Mississippians, constructed large earthen mounds and had complex social structures. Cahokia, a major city near present-day St. Louis, is highlighted as a thriving metropolis with a population of around 20,000. Barnhart points out that these mound builders had a unified culture and religion, but they were not an empire; rather, they consisted of warring city-states.

Barnhart notes that the arrival of Europeans, particularly the Spanish, led to devastating consequences for Native American populations due to the introduction of diseases. He describes the Colombian Exchange, which brought both beneficial and harmful elements to the Americas. The Spanish, while often depicted as brutal conquerors, were not solely responsible for the massive population decline; the diseases they brought were the primary cause of death for many Indigenous peoples.

The Vikings in North America

The discussion then touches on the Vikings, who reached North America around 1000 CE. Barnhart explains that the Vikings established a settlement in Newfoundland but were ultimately driven out by Indigenous peoples who resisted their presence. He contrasts the Vikings' experiences with those of the Spanish, emphasizing that the Indigenous cultures they encountered were sophisticated and capable of defending their territories.

The Nature of History

Throughout the conversation, Barnhart emphasizes the complexity and richness of pre-Columbian societies in North America, challenging the notion that these cultures were primitive or unorganized. He highlights the importance of understanding the historical context of these civilizations and the impact of European colonization on their development. The discussion concludes with a reflection on the nature of history, the role of disease in shaping populations, and the need for a nuanced understanding of the interactions between Indigenous peoples and European colonizers.

The Future of Earth in 10,000 Years

Barnhart expresses a mix of optimism and concern regarding the future of Earth. He acknowledges the rapid advancement of technology and the potential for automation to significantly change human life. However, he also highlights the existential risks humanity faces, such as nuclear war and climate change. He reflects on a podcast episode he listened to about the catastrophic consequences of nuclear conflict, emphasizing the terrifying capacity humans have for destruction.

Despite these fears, Barnhart identifies as an optimist. He believes in human ingenuity and the ability to innovate, especially in times of crisis. He argues that many of humanity's greatest advancements have come from challenging circumstances, suggesting that necessity drives invention. He points out that while the climate crisis is real and pressing, he feels that rather than trying to reverse the damage, humanity should focus on adapting to the changes that are already occurring. He advocates for technological solutions to address impending challenges, such as water desalination and other innovations that can help societies thrive despite environmental changes.

Barnhart emphasizes that the focus should be on survival and adaptation rather than denial of the problems at hand. He believes that humanity has the capacity to not only survive but to thrive in the face of adversity, drawing on historical examples of resilience and innovation.

The Possibility of Alien Civilizations

When discussing the potential for alien civilizations to study Earth, Barnhart reflects on what they might find in the remnants of human civilization. He suggests that much of what defines human culture—such as books, digital media, and other perishable artifacts—would likely be lost over time. What would remain are more durable structures like buildings and monuments, which could lead to misconceptions about human history.

Barnhart uses the example of how modern towns commemorate historical figures, like Lewis and Clark, to illustrate how future archaeologists might misinterpret the significance of certain names and events based on what survives. He speculates that alien anthropologists might draw incorrect conclusions about the civilizations that existed based on the artifacts they uncover, potentially mistaking the importance of certain figures or events due to the incomplete record left behind.

He also discusses the possibility of lost civilizations that could change our understanding of history. Barnhart emphasizes the importance of understanding the motivations and cultural contexts of ancient peoples, suggesting that modern interpretations often fail to capture the complexities of their societies. He shares a personal anecdote about a humorous translation of a Maya ceramic, highlighting the challenges of interpreting ancient cultures through a contemporary lens.

Hope for Humanity's Future

Barnhart expresses a strong belief in the resilience and adaptability of humanity. He views history as a cyclical process, where societies experience highs and lows but ultimately rise again after challenges. He believes that despite the difficulties humanity faces, there is a fundamental spirit of innovation and survival that will prevail.

He acknowledges that some of the challenges humanity encounters are self-inflicted, yet he remains confident that people will find ways to adapt and overcome these obstacles. Barnhart's perspective is rooted in a deep understanding of history, and he believes that the lessons learned from past civilizations can inform how current and future generations respond to crises.

He emphasizes the importance of recognizing the rich history of civilizations that existed before European contact, advocating for a more inclusive understanding of American history that acknowledges the contributions and complexities of indigenous cultures. Barnhart envisions a future where educational curricula reflect this broader perspective, allowing students to appreciate the full scope of human history.