Joe Rogan Experience #2452 - Roger Avary

In this podcast episode, Joe Rogan and guest Roger Avary delve into a wide array of topics spanning classic cinema, film production techniques, conspiracy theories, and contemporary cultural critiques. Their wide-ranging conversation touches on the legacy of Orson Welles, the impact of modern filmmaking technologies, interpretations of classic and modern films, the evolving media landscape, disturbing elements revealed in the Epstein files, and profound discussions about reality, science, and spirituality.

Orson Welles and Classic Filmmaking

Roger Avary begins by expressing admiration for Orson Welles, highlighting the innovative spirit that marked Welles's career, especially in films like Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil. He notes Welles's obsessive commitment to achieving visionary shots, such as the iconic snow sled sequence in Citizen Kane, where the camera pulls back through multiple layers inside a studio, a technically complex feat for the 1940s. Welles's determination included physically altering the studio structure to realize his vision.

Avary praises the intricate planning and lighting required to balance interior and exterior exposures with the film stocks available at the time. He contrasts this with today's filmmaking environment, emphasizing Welles's groundbreaking use of long takes and crane shots in Touch of Evil, particularly the famous opening sequence that tracks suspects carrying a bomb through a Mexican border town (though filmed in Venice, California) with remarkable fluidity.

Transition from Film to Digital

The discussion moves to how filmmaking has changed since Welles's and earlier golden age cinema. Avary explains that shooting on film required meticulous preparation because every frame cost money, driving directors and crews to rehearse thoroughly before rolling cameras. Today's digital cinema offers long "video" takes at less cost per frame but sacrifices this careful precision, often resulting in loss of spontaneity and "magic" on set.

Avary draws an analogy between film and digital as mediums with fundamentally different textures—film resembling oil paint and digital akin to watercolor. He discusses how modern digital cameras produce flatter images, encouraging cinematographers to deliberately shoot into the sun to create lens flares and visual depth, a technique less necessary in film.

Nostalgia and Cinematic Aesthetics

Avary talks about the nostalgic qualities attributed to old films—such as gate weave, scratches, and sepia tones—which originally did not exist when the movies were first shown. These flaws, over time, have become synonymous with "cinematic" and desirable aesthetics, feeding into how audiences now perceive and expect film visuals. He links contemporary trends, such as shooting on iPhones and using digital effects to emulate film imperfections, to this cultivated nostalgia and evolving cinematic language.

Guillermo del Toro and Genre Cinema

The conversation shifts to Guillermo del Toro's work, with Avary expressing mixed feelings. While a fan of del Toro's artistry and passion, he critiques films like Frankenstein and Pan's Labyrinth as sometimes feeling flat or rushed, praising Blade 2 and Pacific Rim more favorably. He appreciates moments of melancholy and rich character development but finds some genre works overly long or lacking engagement.

Vampire and Horror Films

Avary and Rogan explore vampire films extensively, contrasting the classic and avant-garde. The 1970s Nosferatu by Werner Herzog, starring Klaus Kinski, is lauded for its haunting atmosphere and unique approach to horror, differing from Hollywood conventions by employing wide shots and a melancholic tone.

They mention modern vampire films like 30 Days of Night, What We Do in the Shadows, and Let the Right One In, highlighting the enduring appeal and variety within the vampire genre. What We Do in the Shadows is praised as a comedic, mockumentary-style reinvention that successfully combines horror and humor.

Television Quality and New Media

The hosts critique recent television trends and studio-driven agendas, especially the perceived decline in shows with strong storytelling in favor of corporate messaging and "diversity, equity, and inclusion" (DEI) mandates. Avary singles out current Star Trek productions, criticizing their diluted storytelling, poor writing, and cancellation of series like Starfleet Academy, lamenting the loss of legacy writers and the original spirit.

Conversely, they highlight The Orville as a successful Star Trek homage created by Seth MacFarlane, with original Star Trek creative talents contributing, retaining the franchise's heart. The film Galaxy Quest also receives praise for affectionately riffing on Star Trek culture.

The Future of Film and AI Integration

Avary details his experiences navigating the current film industry landscape, contrasting the difficulties of getting traditional films produced with the surprising ease of launching AI-powered film projects. He speaks of his new company focusing on AI-assisted filmmaking, which drastically reduces costs and speeds production, suggesting AI's immense potential to democratize the creation of feature films.

He acknowledges directors like Guillermo del Toro, who are skeptical of AI, but stresses its value primarily as an advanced visual effects and production tool, not a menace to creativity.

Political and Corporate Influence on Media

The discussion touches on how politics infiltrate movies and TV shows, citing the historic example of Midnight Express as a politically motivated film with little factual basis. Avary laments the increasing corporate propaganda replacing personal storytelling, especially citing forced diversity initiatives that feel contrived.

They discuss DEI controversies in big franchises, including Star Trek and Star Wars, criticizing attempts that prioritize social messaging over coherent narratives and character integrity.

Jeffrey Epstein Files and the Dark Underbelly

The conversation becomes darker, covering the recently released Jeffrey Epstein files and alleged evidence of horrific crimes, including trafficking, ritual abuse, and even cannibalism. Avary and Rogan discuss coded language found in emails mentioning terms like "pizza" and "jerky," interpreting these as sinister references to child exploitation.

They address the possibility that large-scale, coordinated evil exists at the highest levels, facilitated by blackmail and secret societies, and express frustration at the public's desensitization or unwillingness to confront these issues. Sulfuric acid orders after Epstein's indictment are discussed skeptically, with official explanations met with disbelief.

The Nature of Evil and Demonic Influence

Avary expounds on his belief in evil as a real force acting through human agents, potentially influenced by demons or dark spiritual entities that manipulate individuals to commit horrific acts under justifications or social rationales. He uses historical examples, including the atomic bombings, AIDS crisis, and pandemic mismanagement, as ways in which demonic impulses manifest through human institutions.

He references occult themes in films like The Exorcist, relating them to real-world stories of trauma, possession, and hidden occult abuse within powerful groups.

Conspiracies, History, and Chronology Revisionism

The guests discuss theories about history being drastically rewritten, mentioning Anatoly Fomenko's "New Chronology," which posits that a thousand years were artificially added to the historical timeline, thus altering our understanding of ancient civilizations, such as Rome and Egypt.

They reflect on how historical "dark ages" might have been constructed and question accepted timelines and narratives, suggesting that much of what is believed about the past is controlled and falsified by obscure powers.

Contemporary Societal Decline and Totalitarianism

The hosts turn to societal and political decay, warning of growing authoritarianism, erosion of rights, censorship, and mass compliance. Examples include the UK's social media arrests and jury trial eliminations, Canada's right-to-protest restrictions, and general public apathy.

They express concern about the long-term threat of a "Bolshevik-style" revolutionary authoritarianism disguised as egalitarianism and the diminishment of individual freedoms under corporate and technocratic rule.

The 9/11 Attacks and Controlled Demolition Theories

Avary and Rogan address skepticism of the official 9/11 narrative, focusing especially on the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7. They point out unusual collapse characteristics, such as its free-fall speed and uniform descent, which resemble controlled demolitions more than fire-induced failures.

They compare footage of actual controlled demolitions to Building 7's fall and cite eyewitness reports of explosions. They discuss how suppressed evidence and questions about the incident have fueled conspiracy theories, highlighting the role of predictive programming in films like Fight Club that mirror real-world attacks.

Modern Physics, Simulation Theory, and Flat Earth Discussion

The conversation ventures into challenging mainstream astrophysics and cosmology. They debate the speed of light's limit, the validity of space images, and whether the Earth is truly a globe, touching on flat Earth theories. Avary admits skepticism based on personal sensory experience, though he acknowledges the vast scientific consensus supporting a spherical Earth.

They consider the possibility that much of what we perceive as reality is a simulation or constructed, and the idea that classical concepts like gravity are incomplete explanations. The flexibility and limitations of ancient languages are discussed in relation to mystical and hidden knowledge.

Biblical Mysticism and Spiritual Insights

Avary explores the depth and complexity of ancient languages like Hebrew, which combine letters and numerical values (gematria) to convey hidden spiritual truths. He reflects on parallels with Nordic runes and the encoded nature of sacred texts.

He also praises modern faith-based media, particularly the show The Chosen, which portrays the life of Jesus in a fresh and accessible manner. Avary contrasts its emphasis on forgiveness with Hollywood's typical focus on revenge and conflict, celebrating alternative approaches to storytelling.

The Disillusionment with Science and the Redemption of Faith

Throughout the episode, there is a recurring theme of skepticism toward official scientific narratives, technological claims, and mainstream media, balanced by an ongoing search for deeper truths. Avary wrestles with doubts about accepted knowledge while maintaining a spiritual openness, suggesting that ultimate understanding lies beyond current data and scientific models.

He advocates for recognizing both poetic and scientific truths as valid and expresses hope that alternative artistic and spiritual media can offer meaningful perspectives amid contemporary chaos.