Joe Rogan Experience #2420 - Chris Masterjohn

In a comprehensive and wide-ranging discussion, Joe Rogan and Chris Masterjohn delve into a variety of topics related to nutrition, mitochondrial health, exercise, supplementation, and long-term wellness. They challenge common myths, explore cutting-edge research on nutrients like creatine and CoQ10, discuss the nuanced role of fats in the diet, highlight the importance of diversified physical activity for longevity, and analyze the complex interactions between mitochondrial function, aging, and chronic diseases. Their dialogue connects practical lifestyle advice with deep biochemical insights, underscoring the interplay between energy metabolism, immune health, and systemic well-being.

Tryptophan and the Turkey Myth

Chris debunks the long-held myth that turkey causes sleepiness due to high tryptophan content. The idea originated from 1980s journalists searching for an explanation for post-Thanksgiving drowsiness, mistakenly attributing it to turkey's tryptophan converting to melatonin. In reality, turkey's tryptophan levels are not particularly high—whey protein contains more—and tryptophan alone doesn't induce sleepiness. The real cause of post-feast fatigue is overeating. Comparisons to lions illustrate normal biological responses to large meals, activating the parasympathetic nervous system ("rest and digest") and naturally inducing rest after a big feast.

Mitochondrial Function and Sleep

Chris emphasizes mitochondrial function as the foundation of health and disease, highlighting sleep's vital role in mitochondrial recovery. Deep sleep allows mitochondria to downregulate energy production and repair damage accumulated during the day. The concept is reinforced by recent research on creatine supplementation which, when taken in high doses during sleep deprivation, helps sustain cognitive performance and buffers tiredness by enhancing cellular energy distribution. Mitochondria produce energy (ATP), while creatine acts as the energy distributor within cells, maintaining metabolic function during stress.

Creatine Beyond Muscle Health

Creatine is traditionally associated with muscle performance, but Chris explains its broader role as a universal energy distributor across nearly every cell, including neurons, retinal cells, and reproductive cells. He notes that creatine supplementation enhances cognitive function and recovery even in brain injuries, where 20 grams daily for six months significantly accelerated healing. Creatine is especially beneficial for those not consuming large amounts of creatine-rich meats (e.g., vegans). The type of dietary protein and degree of cooking impact creatine intake, with wild animals and less cooked meat providing higher levels.

Red Light Therapy and Vision Improvement

Chris shares personal experience and scientific insights on red and near-infrared light therapy. Red light targets mitochondria directly, optimizing their energy production and improving tissue function. A study revealed that red light applied to the chest improved vision the following day, even with eyes covered—supporting systemic improvements in energy metabolism affecting the eye. Combined with supplements like lutein and zeaxanthin (found abundantly in egg yolks and marigolds), red light can halt or reverse macular degeneration. Absorption of these nutrients is aided by dietary fats present in foods like egg yolks.

Glutathione Supplementation

Discussion turns to glutathione, a critical endogenous antioxidant produced from dietary protein. While supplements exist, Chris advocates for a "food first" approach, emphasizing that the best glutathione is that which the body synthesizes naturally. Liposomal forms may offer marginal absorption benefits but come at a high cost, and straightforward glutathione supplements can be equally effective. Like vitamin D, endogenous production is often superior to supplementation. Chris stresses the importance of sunlight exposure for vitamin D and overall health benefits beyond vitamin synthesis, including mitochondrial and immune support.

Sunlight Exposure and Alternatives

Morning sunlight is essential to signal mitochondrial activation upon waking, helping transition from "rest" to "active" states by stimulating energy metabolism. Chris recommends spending extended time in the morning sun to maximize red and infrared light benefits without UV damage. For people in low sunlight regions or winter climaxes (e.g., Seattle), light therapy lamps and careful, minimal use of tanning beds with appropriate UVB ratios can partially substitute. However, bed time and dose must be carefully managed to avoid harmful side effects. Even overcast days offer significant lux levels insufficient indoors.

Methylene Blue: Potential and Risks

Methylene blue (MB) is introduced as a mitochondrial "rerouter," capable of circumventing blockages in electron transport chains by shuttling electrons around damaged areas within mitochondria. It is effective only if mitochondria have dysfunction; otherwise, it may induce erratic energy flow and worsen function. At doses around 10 mg/day, MB exerts monoamine oxidase inhibition causing mild antidepressant effects, which may explain some users' subjective improvements. Personalized mitochondrial testing is recommended before use due to varied response and potential side effects such as fatigue and anxiety in sensitive individuals.

Aging, Mitochondrial Decline, and Lifestyle Control

Chris views mitochondrial dysfunction as synonymous with aging, explaining that cumulative insults—illness, injury, suboptimal nutrition, and overtraining—incrementally impair mitochondrial efficiency at roughly 1% per year, halving mitochondrial function by age 70. However, only 25% of this decline is age-driven; 75% is modifiable through lifestyle. Maintaining peak mitochondrial function through various practices can slow this decline. He underscores that fitness in elderly populations dramatically varies, highlighting the importance of personalized approaches to mitigate decline and extend healthspan.

Exercise Diversity for Longevity

Longevity benefits best derive from diversified physical activity encompassing endurance, strength, mobility, agility, balance, and proprioception. Research shows pro gymnasts and pole vaulters outlive other athletes by around eight years, while cyclists live only two years longer than the general population. Functional movement training—emphasizing diverse skills and multi-planar activity—may contribute to improved immune function, cancer prevention, and neurologic health. The importance of "being upside down" and fluid dynamics on health is noted as an intriguing area for further research. Chris encourages regular skill acquisition and maintenance to avoid physical or neurological decline.

Cognitive Engagement and Skill Training

Skill-based activities that require coordination, strategy, reaction, and adaptability (e.g., martial arts, jump rope) compound physical with cognitive workout benefits. Continuous mental challenges, such as learning new sports or exercises, keep neurological pathways sharp and delay cognitive decline. Chris shares personal remarks about maintaining and regaining coordination through daily skill practice and balancing skill acquisition with physical workload. Cognitive training complements physical exercise for holistic brain and body health.

Injury, Recovery, and Mitochondrial Impact

Injuries from activities like martial arts accumulate systemic physical tolls, fueling mitochondrial diversion towards repair and recovery, which may accelerate overall mitochondrial decline. Recovery from traumatic brain injuries is especially energy-demanding; creatine supplementation (often at high doses) has been shown to aid neural recovery. Chris advises prioritizing injury prevention and cautious return to activity post-injury to avoid undermining long-term health and mitochondrial function. He cautions against aggressive weight cutting practices common in combat sports for the same reasons.

Coenzyme Q10 and Supplementation Nuances

CoQ10 is a vital mitochondrial electron transporter supporting ATP synthesis and mitochondrial biogenesis. Its supplementation, often from heart tissue sources, can improve cardiovascular and metabolic health but requires nuanced dosing. Moderate doses (100-200 mg/day) generally show beneficial effects, though excessive doses may provoke insomnia, palpitations, or sensory hypersensitivity in sensitive individuals. Chris recounts a special case where high-dose CoQ10 restored menstruation after a decade of amenorrhea, illustrating potential life-changing benefits in specific contexts. He stresses that food sources (heart, liver) remain preferable and that supplementation should follow thorough testing.

Nutrient Deficiencies and Food-First Philosophy

Despite assumptions, nutrient deficiencies are widespread, with 93% of Americans lacking adequate levels of at least one nutrient. Diverse, whole, and minimally processed foods—especially nose-to-tail animal products—offer a broad "portfolio" of micronutrients that support mitochondrial and systemic health. Nutritional balance helps prevent adverse interactions and bottlenecks in metabolic pathways, which can be exacerbated by megadosing individual nutrients without guidance. Chris encourages personalized testing, dietary diversity, and cautious supplementation as an adjunct to foundational nutrition from food.

Seed Oils: Historical Context and Health Implications

Seed oils (e.g., corn, canola, cottonseed) are industrially processed with chemical solvents like hexane, producing oils high in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) that differ markedly from traditional human fat sources. Long-term epidemiological studies, such as the LA Veterans Administration Hospital study, have linked seed oil consumption to increased cancer and atherosclerosis risk, often overlooked due to reliance on short-term trials. Seed oils increase tissue vulnerability by oxidizing PUFAs within lipoproteins, triggering immune responses causing vascular inflammation and plaque formation. The complexity of seed oil effects is obscured by scientific and media controversies, peripheral financial interests, and incentive structures in research funding.

Olive Oil and Fatty Acid Misconceptions

Olive oil emerged as a middle ground in dietary fats after seed oils were associated with negative health outcomes and saturated fats were demonized due to flawed historical narratives and political influences. Chris clarifies distinctions between fruit oils (olive, avocado) and seed oils, noting that olive oil's fatty acid profile and minimal processing contribute to its healthier status. However, even with olive oil and other oils, cooking techniques, smoke points, and processing methods affect health outcomes. Chris advises moderation, emphasizing unprocessed, traditional fats over heavily refined industrial oils.

Cholesterol, Mitochondria, and Cardiovascular Disease

The conversation returns to cholesterol, often misunderstood as solely harmful. Chris highlights that elevated cholesterol may indicate impaired mitochondrial energy metabolism rather than a direct cause of disease. Cholesterol is integral for hormone synthesis and neuronal function, and its efficient turnover depends on energetic signaling from mitochondria and brain centers like the hypothalamus. Seed oil–induced lipid oxidation in LDL particles, not cholesterol itself, triggers immune-mediated vascular damage seen in atherosclerosis. He critiques statin therapies for reducing CoQ10 and mitochondrial function, cautioning against their indiscriminate use without first optimizing mitochondrial health.

Thyroid Health and Nutritional Support

Thyroid hormone regulation is tightly linked to mitochondrial energy production and nutrient status. Chris explains that producing thyroid hormone requires adequate protein intake (for tyrosine) and iodine, which is most reliably obtained from seafood and iodized salt. Modern environmental factors—including bromine, fluoride, and use of non-iodized salt—can increase iodine needs. Selenium, along with other antioxidants, supports thyroid function by enabling glutathione to protect the gland from oxidative damage. Chris notes surprising continued cases of goiter and hypothyroidism, attributing this to nutritional deficiencies and public health messaging around salt intake.

Nattokinase and Cardiovascular Health

Addressing acute cardiovascular events, Chris introduces nattokinase, an enzyme derived from natto (fermented soy rich in vitamin K2) that breaks down blood clots formed during atherosclerotic plaque rupture. While plaques themselves develop as immune quarantines of damaged lipids—primarily oxidized PUFAs from seed oils—fatal heart attacks and strokes typically result from sudden clot formation rather than arterial blockage alone. Nattokinase may reduce clotting risk for susceptible individuals, thereby preventing acute cardiovascular incidents. Incorporating natto as a food source combines benefits of clot prevention and calcium regulation, exemplifying food-first strategies.

Evidence-Based Discourse and Media Landscape

Throughout the discussion, Chris and Joe remark on the problematic influencer culture in nutrition and wellness that often prioritizes controversy and hyperbole over balanced, evidence-based communication. Chris applauds rational, measured voices like Joe's for elevating scientific discourse free from sensationalism. They criticize the ignoring of long-term nutrition studies in favor of short, attention-grabbing trials, noting that genuine progress requires patience, nuance, and integration of historical data alongside emerging research. They both emphasize critical thinking and skepticism toward overhyped health claims.

Where to Find Chris Masterjohn

Chris Masterjohn publishes a newsletter discussing mitochondrial and nutritional science at chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com and offers mitochondrial function testing through mito.me, providing resources for personalized health optimization grounded in biochemical understanding.