Joe Rogan Experience #2392 - John Kiriakou

Moving on to his tenure in Pakistan post-9/11, Kiriakou portrayed his role as head of counterterrorism operations, responsible for tracking and capturing key al-Qaeda figures. His detailed account of the painstaking search for Abu Zubaida exemplified the intensity of tracking high-value terrorists, and his eventual capture led him into the heart of post-9/11 CIA interrogation policies. These experiences set the stage for Kiriakou's later whistleblowing efforts, providing intimate insight into CIA operations during the global war on terror.

The CIA Torture Program

One of the most significant parts of the discussion centered on the CIA's use of so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques," a euphemism for torture. Kiriakou explained how, in 2002, he was asked if he wanted to be trained in these techniques, which were then pitched as legal and authorized by both the Justice Department and the president. Initially naïve about what training entailed, he quickly realized it involved brutal methods such as waterboarding, the cold cell, and extended sleep deprivation.

Kiriakou revealed the systemic nature of this program, which escalated beyond the originally prescribed limits, even leading to deaths from hypothermia. He lamented the irony that, while these methods were widely condemned as ineffective and immoral, they persisted without accountability. Kiriakou recounted that he was the sole dissenting officer out of 14 to refuse participation, identifying the program as not only against his ethics but also illegal. His moral stance marked the beginning of a professional and personal crisis as the CIA doubled down on the use of torture despite its proven ineffectiveness and severe human costs.

MK Ultra

The conversation then touched on the CIA's controversial MK Ultra program, infamous for its explorations into mind control and drug use. Kiriakou recounted some of the dark chapters of this program, including unethical experiments involving LSD and truth serums aimed at extracting information or manipulating behavior. Despite wide public awareness of MK Ultra, much of its documentation was destroyed on orders from the CIA director in the 1970s, meaning the full extent of its activities remains unknown.

Kiriakou described particularly bizarre sub-operations where American citizens were covertly dosed with LSD, often without consent, in attempts to evaluate psychological and behavioral effects. He linked MK Ultra to other cultural phenomena, such as the Manson Family, noting the disturbing intersections between covert intelligence experiments and criminal acts. This historical perspective underscored how intelligence agencies have at times pushed legal and ethical boundaries far beyond public scrutiny.

The Deep State

Kiriakou candidly discussed the entrenched power structure within the U.S. intelligence community, describing it as a "deep state" or unelected bureaucracy capable of outlasting presidents and public opinion. He explained how long-term agency employees wield immense power, often resisting directives from elected leaders by slow-walking or undermining initiatives. This phenomenon perpetuates a system unaccountable to democratic oversight and allows questionable policies, such as the torture program, to persist despite opposition.

This resistance was particularly evident in the counterterrorism center, where officers who opposed the torture program, like Kiriakou himself, found their careers stalled or derailed. He described a culture that neither tolerated dissent nor allowed transparency, isolating whistleblowers and perpetuating unethical practices. The notion that intelligence professionals act as a parallel government with its own priorities added a layer of complexity to understanding American governance and accountability.

Capture of Abu Zubaida

Kiriakou recounted in detail the seizure of Abu Zubaida, once believed to be a top al-Qaeda leader. The operation's intricacies highlighted the CIA's reliance on cooperation with foreign intelligence agencies, sometimes in difficult circumstances, and the use of secretive renditions to secret sites. The episode was marked by operational secrecy, with Kiriakou not informed about Abu Zubaida's ultimate fate or destination during the handover.

Once in CIA custody, Abu Zubaida's treatment reflected the agency's aggressive interrogation methods. Kiriakou described how the FBI initially coaxed vital intelligence from Abu Zubaida through rapport-based approaches, demonstrating that respectful interrogation worked, while subsequent CIA-led torture silenced the detainee, squandering actionable intelligence. This experience reinforced Kiriakou's conviction that torture not only violated human rights but also impaired intelligence gathering.

Whistleblowing

After leaving the CIA, Kiriakou's decision to expose the torture program led to profound personal consequences. He detailed being falsely accused of involvement in torture, enduring media scrutiny, and ultimately facing charges of disclosing classified information. Though initially cleared by the FBI, the Obama administration later prosecuted him under obscure laws like the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, apparently as a political vendetta led by John Brennan, then a top intelligence official.

The legal battle was arduous, draining Kiriakou financially and emotionally, culminating in a conviction that sent him to prison for two years. He lamented the harsh government treatment of whistleblowers, contrasting his sentence with others charged under similar laws for far more egregious offenses who received lighter sentences. Kiriakou's case highlighted systemic efforts to silence dissent within national security circles, illustrating how legal and political machinery can be weaponized against those exposing wrongdoing.

Life in Prison

Kiriakou provided a vivid account of his incarceration experience at a federal correctional institution in Pennsylvania. He described the hostile prison environment, including initial threats and social dynamics where he was pigeonholed into specific groups for protection. His narrative shed light on the harsh realities faced by white-collar prisoners and the challenges of reintegration after prison, such as widespread job rejections and financial devastation.

He also shared how the public release of the Senate torture report validated his whistleblowing and helped revive his credibility. Despite this, he faced enormous difficulties rebuilding his life, facing blacklisting and skepticism. With assistance from advocacy groups and a Greek citizenship offer, Kiriakou gradually reestablished a career as an author, speaker, and adjunct professor, though financial and professional challenges persist. His journey underscored the high personal and familial toll exacted on whistleblowers.

The Role of Political Influence

Throughout the interview, Kiriakou was frank about his antagonistic relationship with John Brennan, whose rise within the CIA and influence in the Obama administration deeply impacted Kiriakou's fate. He narrated Brennan's career trajectory from a junior analyst to one of the agency's most powerful figures, revealing how personal enmities influenced official actions. Brennan's insistence on prosecuting Kiriakou and restricting his legal defense illustrated vendettas at the highest levels.

This personal feud was emblematic of broader issues within the intelligence community where internal politics can overshadow ethics or justice. Brennan's loyalty to the torture program he helped author and his aggressive suppression of whistleblowers reflected a dangerous concentration of power unchecked by external oversight. Kiriakou's story exposed how individuals' ambitions and grudges can shape national policies and the treatment of those who speak out.

Propaganda

A significant portion of the conversation grappled with the increasing use of propaganda, media manipulation, and artificial intelligence to shape public opinion. Kiriakou described how U.S. laws have evolved to legalize propaganda targeting American citizens, a move shocking given historical restrictions on domestic propaganda. He provided critiques of government-sponsored broadcasting initiatives like Radio TV Marti aimed at foreign audiences and the incongruity of continuing such efforts in the internet age.

Kiriakou also discussed modern digital disinformation campaigns, particularly those attributed to foreign actors like China and Russia, which exploit social media echo chambers and AI bots to sow division. He shared his own unsettling experience with AI-driven misinformation—such as fabricated scholarly article links and incorrect biographical data from ChatGPT—demonstrating the potential for surreal and harmful influence on discourse. These reflections emphasized the challenges democracies face in safeguarding truth and citizen autonomy amid 21st-century technological tools.

U.S. Politics

The guest touched on the intertwining relationship between politics, intelligence, and lobbying, highlighting how entities like AIPAC wield outsized influence over U.S. foreign policy, particularly regarding Israel. Kiriakou recounted his early encounters with Israeli intelligence liaison officers, describing mutual distrust yet complex cooperation. He revealed how pro-Israel lobbying shapes congressional behavior, including campaign financing and primary challenges, and raised questions about AIPAC's unique exemption from foreign agent registration laws.

This discussion revealed broader themes of foreign influence and partisan interests distorting U.S. policy debates. Kiriakou's anecdote about declining an all-expense-paid trip to Israel illustrated his wariness of political capture, a concern amplified by the prevalent role lobbying plays in shaping narratives and decisions. These insights shed light on how powerful interest groups interface with intelligence and politics, often beyond the public's view.

International Conflicts

Toward the end of the podcast, Kiriakou gave his seasoned perspectives on current geopolitical hotspots. While acknowledging the ongoing tensions in the Israel-Palestine conflict, including controversial settlement expansions and political instability, he suggested that China and Iran posed more significant long-term challenges to U.S. interests. He praised the diplomatic openings initiated by former President Trump, envisioning potential peace efforts brokered between regional powers like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Regarding Russia and the Ukraine war, Kiriakou was cautiously pragmatic, noting the likelihood of Ukrainian territorial losses but emphasizing the importance of diplomatic efforts and possible compromises like European Union fast-tracking without NATO membership. He highlighted the strategic patience of China and its sophisticated influence operations designed to exacerbate U.S. internal divisions. In these reflections, Kiriakou combined his operational experience with a measured understanding of the evolving balance of power in the 21st century.

Conclusion

The interview concluded with Kiriakou reflecting on the paradox of working for and being betrayed by the government. He expressed his mixed feelings of pride in having served and frustration and anger over the system's corruption and repression. Despite these challenges, he underscored his ongoing commitment to transparency, ethical intelligence work, and protecting civil liberties, bridging partisan divides when necessary to advocate for principles over politics.

He also issued a hopeful yet realistic warning about the increasing overreach of government surveillance, legal overcriminalization, and institutional propaganda. Kiriakou urged citizens to critically engage with governance, to resist apathy, and to support whistleblowers who risk everything to expose abuses.