Joe Rogan Experience #2395 - Mariana van Zeller

She explains that her work extends beyond simply documenting crime; it centers on understanding the socio-economic circumstances that drive individuals into illegal activities. This includes not just cartel members but low- and mid-level operatives like traffickers, chemists, and smugglers. Her reporting highlights the layered complexity behind these personas, making her work a rare window into the human stories that underlie global black and gray markets.

The Hidden Third Podcast

Mariana recently launched "The Hidden Third," a podcast dedicated to exploring the vast black and gray markets that comprise an estimated 35% of the global economy. She explains that while the black market includes illicit drugs, arms, and trafficking, the gray market represents informal but legal yet unregulated economic activities—such as untaxed labor and goods sold by street vendors. The blend of these markets profoundly affects societies worldwide through lost tax revenues and increased social consequences.

The podcast adopts a raw, intimate format where Mariana interviews individuals living on the fringes of legality, from smugglers to scammers. The goal is to humanize them and understand the underlying factors propelling such lifestyles. Mariana stresses the importance of contextualizing crime geographically—how poverty and lack of opportunity can shape choices—and challenges listeners to consider how easily roles could be reversed under different circumstances.

Inside the Cartels

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Mariana's deep access to Mexican cartels, especially in Sinaloa. She reveals that building trust with such groups can take months or years, requiring delicate negotiation, use of fixers, and adherence to strict parameters like anonymizing identities through masks and made-up names. Phones must be turned off or confiscated to prevent surveillance; revealing tattoos or locations could endanger everyone involved.

Despite these precautions, Mariana has filmed in highly dangerous environments including methamphetamine and fentanyl labs, meeting violent sicarios and chemists—often operating openly with corrupt police presence nearby. She explains that cartel members are wary of American law enforcement but often manipulate local authorities. This intricate dance between crime and corruption raises questions about governance, enforcement, and safety, while providing rare insight into how these organizations function at both international and local levels.

Counterfeit Currency

Mariana delves into the sinister world of counterfeiting, telling the story of master forgers in Lima, Peru, who produce near-perfect fake US dollars using innovative finishing techniques. She describes a "finisher" who uses cornmeal and other everyday items to mimic the feel and texture of real bills. Yet, despite advanced replication skills, the paper itself remains a limiting factor due to its tight supply controlled by the US government.

The counterfeit money typically enters the US through small towns, where it circulates in grocery stores and is exchanged at a discount to avoid detection. Small businesses are disproportionately affected by losses caused by fake bills, which often surface during bank deposits when trained tellers spot flaws invisible to untrained eyes. This counterfeit flow is intricately linked to the larger black market economy and criminal enterprises, highlighting how the ripple effects of illicit activities touch ordinary communities.

Drug Distribution Networks

Mariana uncovers the reach of Mexican cartels deep into the US, illustrating operations managed by that she calls "El Gringo," an American citizen responsible for wholesale drug distribution. These drugs often move via commercial airlines, exploiting baggage allowances and the relative leniency toward female passengers—such as strippers—who are perceived as less suspicious. This clandestine air trafficking is widespread and efficient, making major carriers like Delta unwitting facilitators.

She underscores the chilling realization that it's very likely that many flights from the West Coast to East Coast involve drug transport. This interstate network cements the interconnected nature of drug demand, supply logistics, and enforcement challenges within and across national boundaries. It also demonstrates the sophistication and brazenness of these criminal operations amid the backdrop of massive US drug consumption.

Opioid Crisis

The conversation transitions to America's ongoing opioid epidemic and the exploitative "rehab scam" industry profiting off vulnerable addicts. Mariana exposes the fraudulent practices behind so-called rehab facilities, many operating as fronts for insurance fraud and "body brokering"—where recovering addicts are bought and sold between centers to maximize billing. Some facilities, even owned by foreign nationals, operate under dubious legality by violating rules like illegal kickbacks and mass "Zoom" group therapy sessions billed at exorbitant rates.

This scam industry compounds the public health crisis, leaving many addicts with little real help while exploiting insurance systems. Mariana draws links between systemic failures, profiteering, and the deep human cost, highlighting the need for genuine solutions beyond punishment and militarization, framing addiction as a public health emergency requiring empathy and structural reform.

Emerging Drug Threats

Further exploring drug trends, Mariana explains the rise of "tranq dope," a lethal mix of fentanyl and animal tranquilizers like xylazine, especially prevalent in cities such as Philadelphia. Users shoot up this dangerous concoction, which prolongs the high but causes severe physical damage, including gangrene leading to amputations—an alarming and tragic development.

She paints a stark picture of addiction's grim realities, often involving desperate individuals trapped in cycles of substance abuse exacerbated by synthetic drugs. This emerging crisis adds layers to the already complex opiate epidemic, challenging healthcare providers, families, and communities.

Immigration, and Asylum

Mariana and Joe engage deeply on immigration topics, discussing the plight of asylum seekers fleeing violence and poverty in Central America and elsewhere. She shares heartbreaking stories such as a Guatemalan mother and daughter escaping brutal gang violence, legally seeking asylum in the United States. Yet ongoing bureaucratic backlogs and harsh enforcement policies result in family separations, deportations, and, in some cases, death.

They discuss widespread misconceptions about immigration laws, emphasizing that entering without documentation to seek asylum is legally permissible under international agreements. Mariana stresses the multi-layered challenges facing migrants, the humanitarian implications of raids, and the structural failures allowing vulnerabilities to be exploited politically and economically.

Political Polarization

The interview then shifts toward the current political climate in the United States, drawing attention to the extreme polarization and the role media plays in deepening divides. Mariana laments how mainstream outlets often serve partisan interests, contributing to public distrust. She champions independent journalism as a critical counterbalance, praising figures like Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi for providing rigorous, nuanced reporting outside party lines.

They critique tribalistic tendencies where ideological loyalty overrides critical thinking, noting how citizens are manipulated by both left and right-wing propaganda. Mariana reveals her podcast as a platform for honest, uninhibited conversations unhindered by corporate or political influence, emphasizing the importance of transparency and empathy to rebuild public trust and foster informed discourse.

Truth in the Digital Age

The conversation closes examining the complicated role of social media as both an empowering tool for sharing information and a battleground for misinformation and scams. Mariana candidly discusses her latest investigative project where she infiltrates scam factories using a disguised identity to understand how millions are defrauded globally. These operations involve forced labor and horrific abuses in regions like Myanmar, with scammers exploiting romantic and financial vulnerabilities online, fueling a multi-billion-dollar industry.

She and Joe agree that while social media expands access to diverse perspectives, the prevalence of bots, AI-generated disinformation, and deepening echo chambers makes discerning truth increasingly difficult. Nonetheless, they share optimism that, over time, society will develop greater resilience to deception, emphasizing critical thinking, verified sources, and open dialogue as essential defenses in this evolving digital landscape.