The Best Conversation About History You’ve Ever Heard - Dominic Sandbrook

The Moralism of Modern History

The conversation opens by addressing a notable shift over the last fifteen years in the way history is discussed, particularly the growing moralism that colors public and academic discourse. Sandbrook acknowledges that historical narratives have often been moralistic, citing the Victorians who framed history in terms of heroes and villains. Yet the current wave of moral judgment is more intense and, in his view, lacks the balance that history demands. While learning moral lessons from the past is valuable, Sandbrook cautions against setting oneself up as the definitive moral judge of historical actors.

He points out that many past figures—whether Hitler, Stalin, or Mao—were utopian idealists who believed sincerely in their vision for a better world, however horrific their methods may have been. This idealism, coupled with certainty about one's righteousness, has repeatedly led to immense violence. Sandbrook argues that history should be approached with an awareness of the "beast" within human nature—the capacity for cruelty, selfishness, and savagery—and warns against sanitized views that underestimate this reality.

The Complexity of Historical Figures and Narratives

Moving beyond black-and-white depictions, Sandbrook emphasizes the importance of nuance and complexity in understanding key historical figures. Taking Oliver Cromwell and Winston Churchill as examples, he highlights their dual natures: their achievements and leadership alongside their flaws and morally troubling actions. These figures cannot be easily categorized as simply heroes or villains.

Similarly, when discussing empires—especially the British Empire—Sandbrook stresses the danger of reductive accounts that portray it as either wholly evil or an unblemished force. Compared to other colonial empires, the British Empire is unique in that it planted the seeds of its own dissolution through exporting ideas of law and democracy, even as it engaged in sometimes brutal colonial rule. He calls out what he sees as a narcissistic element in some critiques that place disproportionate blame on British imperialism while ignoring equally or more brutal actions by other empires or indigenous groups themselves.

Sandbrook also draws attention to the common misconception that indigenous societies such as the Aztecs or Native Americans were idyllic and peaceful prior to European contact. He discourages romanticizing either side and urges a balanced view in which both conquerors and the conquered are seen as complicated societies capable of great violence and great culture.

The Challenges of Historical Truth and Interpretation

One of the more philosophical parts of the discussion centers on the nature of historical truth. Sandbrook acknowledges that multiple competing narratives about any event or period can coexist, each with some validity. However, he also maintains there is a line between reasonable interpretations and outright falsehoods. Examples such as attempts to recast Hitler as a victim or Churchill as a villain are not just differencing of opinion but reflect blatant distortions.

He explains that history is often a contest of narratives shaped by perspective, bias, and incomplete evidence, and that true academic historians aim, where possible, to differentiate between more and less accurate accounts. He laments the retreat of professional historians from public discourse, which has allowed opportunistic voices to dominate online discussions and deepen confusion about factual accuracy.

Understanding Evil and Utopian Idealism

When addressing the concept of evil, particularly as it relates to mass killers like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, Sandbrook argues that these figures never viewed themselves as evil but rather as agents of a necessary and constructive cause. Histories of regimes—Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Cambodian Khmer Rouge—consistently reveal leaders convinced they were building better worlds and acting morally, even while causing unimaginable suffering.

He stresses the danger of certainty: those who believe they possess absolute moral clarity about their mission and are willing to sacrifice others as expendable for the sake of an ideal are often responsible for the greatest atrocities. This utopian idealism, in his view, is the most deadly force in history—not evil for evil's sake, but evil cloaked in righteousness. In contrast, figures like Churchill, despite their decisiveness and strong beliefs, were marked by a tragic sense of human frailty and skepticism about simple moral certitude.

The Role of War, Violence, and Human Nature

The conversation turns to war and the sanitized perceptions of it that persist in modern society, especially in Western countries that have experienced relative peace for decades. Sandbrook notes that young people today are largely insulated from the brutal realities of conflict and the "beast" in human nature, which leads to idealistic or even naive beliefs about progress and morality.

He illustrates this by recounting behavior in recent conflicts such as the Falklands War, where acts once considered normal in warfare shock modern sensibilities. Sandbrook contextualizes violence as an inherent aspect of human history and warns against the modern impulse to express shock and moral indignation at what has often been routine cruelty.

Contemporary Politics and Historical Perspective

Extending his analysis to current geopolitical events, Sandbrook discusses Russian imperial ambitions under Vladimir Putin, emphasizing that these actions should be understood as consistent with traditional imperial behavior rather than aberrant outbursts. Putin, like past empire-builders, prioritizes national interest and power. Western reactions often misinterpret this through a moralistic lens, neglecting the harsh realities of geopolitical competition.

Sandbrook also touches on the lost sense of tragic political realism in the West, where there is a failure to accept the permanence of conflict, competition, and human flaws within national and international affairs. He reiterates that history will continue to unfold with turmoil and violence, regardless of wishful thinking or moral posturing.

The Nuclear Age and the Future of Humanity

A final profound reflection concerns nuclear weapons and their paradoxical role in maintaining peace while posing the greatest existential threat. Sandbrook observes how nuclear annihilation has faded from public consciousness despite growing global nuclear arsenals. He suggests that fear and uncertainty surrounding these weapons make future use probable, especially as automation and artificial intelligence become involved in defense systems.

Yet, in the spirit of grim realism, Sandbrook maintains an optimistically fatalistic outlook: history is marked by cycles of destruction and survival, and while catastrophe may come, life will continue in some form. He underscores the importance of accepting uncertainty and the tragic nature of existence rather than clinging to illusions of inevitable progress or moral purity.