CIA Whistleblower: They Can See All Your Messages! I Was Under Surveillance In Pakistan!

In this podcast episode, John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer and whistleblower, shares profound insights into the clandestine world of espionage, intelligence operations, and government surveillance. Drawing from his 15-year career in the CIA, Kiriakou candidly discusses how intelligence agencies spy on Americans, the extensive powers they wield over personal devices, the ethical challenges inside the agency, and the geopolitical stakes involving global adversaries. He also reflects on his experiences blowing the whistle on the CIA's torture program, the nature of intelligence recruitment, sleeper agents, and why he believes Jeffrey Epstein was a spy.

Surveillance and Digital Vulnerability

Kiriakou reveals that billions of dollars are funneled into spying on Americans through agencies like the NSA, CIA, and FBI. He emphasizes that privacy is largely an illusion, as intelligence services can remotely hack into devices—including cars and smart TVs—to collect information without users' knowledge. This capability was exposed through the Vault 7 documents leaked by a disgruntled CIA software engineer, which detailed how the CIA could covertly take control of cars to cause accidents or turn muted TVs into listening devices that can record and transmit private conversations. Kiriakou underscores that these invasive techniques are not unique to the U.S., but are used globally by various intelligence services, highlighting the omnipresent threat to digital security.

John Kiriakou's CIA Career and Whistleblowing

John Kiriakou recounts his journey from a young boy in Pennsylvania dreaming of becoming a spy, to his recruitment into the CIA while at George Washington University. He initially worked in analysis, providing intelligence briefings for presidents from George H.W. Bush to George W. Bush, particularly focusing on Iraq. Kiriakou vividly describes his early briefing in the Oval Office on the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Growing bored with analysis, he transitioned into operations and counterterrorism, where his role involved recruiting spies within terrorist organizations such as al-Qaeda to prevent attacks. His fluency in Arabic and undercover skills helped him build relationships with militants to extract critical intelligence.

Later in his career, Kiriakou made the courageous decision to expose the CIA's illegal torture program, describing it as immoral, unethical, and ineffective. Despite knowing the personal cost—including serving 23 months in federal prison on charges including espionage—he stands firm that whistleblowing was the right choice. Kiriakou laments how the government weaponized legal tools and prosecutions as retaliation, highlighting deep systemic issues in accountability within U.S. intelligence and justice systems.

Recruitment, Human Nature, and Intelligence Work

The discussion delves into the psychology behind intelligence recruitment, where Kiriakou reveals that money motivates 95% of spies, with love, ideology, revenge, and excitement making up the rest. He explains the asset acquisition cycle—spotting, assessing, developing, and recruiting individuals with access to desired information. Kiriakou shares candid anecdotes, including how he built rapport with targets by simply showing empathy, and the extent to which the CIA encourages operatives to operate in legal and ethical grey zones without remorse. He describes how CIA trainees are also explicitly trained to lie and detect lies, skills essential in espionage but detrimental to personal relationships, contributing to high divorce rates among officers.

Kiriakou points out that while intelligence operatives often lead secretive double lives, they are ordinary people with flaws. He also addresses some misunderstandings about spies, emphasizing that contrary to popular belief, espionage requires patience, relationship building, and subtlety more than high-drama action.

Sleeper Agents and Espionage in America

Kiriakou explains sleeper agents—individuals taken as children, raised to assimilate flawlessly into another society with fake identities, and activated later for espionage purposes. He narrates the story of an East German sleeper agent who lived as an American, working for decades before defecting to the FBI after personal awakening. According to him, tens of thousands of foreign intelligence officers operate undercover in the U.S., especially within defense contractors and major metropolitan hubs like Washington, D.C. Meeting such individuals is statistically probable, given the scale of espionage activities ongoing.

Influence of Intelligence on Media and Culture

Kiriakou shares his perspective on how intelligence agencies, especially the CIA, have learned to influence public perception through Hollywood and now digital media like podcasts. The CIA officially liaises with Hollywood studios to ensure favorable portrayals, as seen in films like Zero Dark Thirty and Argo, positioning the agency as heroic. He acknowledges the possibility that certain supposedly anti-CIA voices in digital media might inadvertently or deliberately serve intelligence narratives, facilitating the spread of desired messages or propaganda.

Ethics, Torture, and Government Accountability

A central theme of the conversation is ethics within intelligence work. Kiriakou details how torture, once illegal and punishable by death, was legalized post-9/11 in U.S. counterterrorism efforts despite the law never formally changing. He vividly recalls being the human rights officer in Bahrain, suffering moral conflicts between reporting abuses and agency complicity in secret prisons and torture. His whistleblowing fight exposed these issues but resulted in government retaliation. The passing of the McCain-Feinstein anti-torture amendment in 2014 marked a victory credited partially to his activism.

He warns against unregulated government power and overcriminalization, citing the book Three Felonies a Day to argue how easily citizens can be targeted legally, emotionally resonating with his own experience of prosecution.

Geopolitical Adversaries: China, Russia, and Israel

Kiriakou identifies China as the foremost long-term adversary of the West due to its patient, strategic approach to global influence. Unlike the U.S., China plans decades ahead, investing heavily in African infrastructure and education as soft power rather than military dominance. He highlights the presence of Chinese spies masquerading as PhD students in American universities, actively stealing technology. He contrasts this with the U.S. obsession with military spending, which he claims is unsustainable.

Regarding Israel, Kiriakou expresses deep respect for its intelligence services' ruthlessness and effectiveness. He describes Israeli operations that used explosive-laden pagers to decimate Hezbollah leadership and candidly discusses their disregard for collateral damage. He exposes Israeli espionage against the U.S., including unauthorized surveillance attempts, while explaining America's paradoxical role of generously sharing defense secrets with Israel.

On Russia, Kiriakou touches on sleeper agents and the extensive espionage they conduct in the U.S., though he does not elaborate as much as on China and Israel.

Jeffrey Epstein: Spy or Criminal?

Kiriakou asserts with strong conviction that Jeffrey Epstein was a spy, likely working for Israeli intelligence. He describes Epstein's role as an "access agent," someone recruited to gain proximity to influential figures such as politicians, business magnates, and royalty. Epstein's wealth, island estate, and the use of compromising sexual materials suggest the use of "compromat" for blackmail or influence—a tactic Kiriakou says only Israelis and Russians deploy reliably in espionage. Epstein's unusually lenient legal treatment and indefinite protection fit this profile, according to Kiriakou.

The Reality of Espionage and the Vulnerability of Everyday Life

Throughout their conversation, Kiriakou emphasizes how invisible and pervasive espionage is in modern life. He stresses that average citizens routinely interact with people involved in spying without knowing it, especially if they work in sensitive sectors. He warns about the fragile nature of truth and security, arguing that most people underestimate the extent to which their data, communications, and physical safety may be compromised. His message is a call for caution, vigilance, and ethical clarity in a world dominated by covert operations and surveillance.

Reflections on Personal Growth and Overcoming Adversity

Ending on a personal note, Kiriakou reflects on his struggles with depression, divorce, and the fallout of his whistleblowing. He admits to periods of self-pity but credits a pivotal decision to stop feeling sorry for himself as transformative, allowing him to rebuild a meaningful life and career outside government employment. He now focuses on storytelling through podcasts, books, and media, sharing his experiences to inform and empower others. He frames his journey as not just one of espionage, but of ethical commitment, resilience, and personal redemption.