Joscha Bach: Life, Intelligence, Consciousness, AI & the Future of Humans | Lex Fridman Podcast #392

Added: Aug 2, 2023

Bach introduces a model of lucidity proposed by psychologist Robert Keegan, which suggests that the development of the self occurs in distinct stages. These stages include reactive survival, personal self, social self, rational agency self-direction, self-authoring, enlightenment, and transcendence. Bach explains that this model is not a linear progression but rather a framework to understand how individuals interact with the world and themselves. The conversation delves into the concept of the personal self and how it is constructed as an agent that interacts with the outside world. Bach explains that the personal self is a representation created by the mind, and it is through this representation that individuals experience themselves interacting with the world. Feelings serve as an interface to the outside world, posing problems and guiding individuals in their actions. Bach emphasizes the importance of empathy and resonance in the development of the social self. He explains that individuals resonate with others and assimilate moral opinions through interactions with their environment. However, he notes that individuals with different cognitive architectures may struggle to resonate with each other, leading to feelings of loneliness. The discussion then moves to the stages of enlightenment and transcendence. Bach suggests that enlightenment is the realization that everything is a representation and can be deconstructed and understood. It is the understanding of how experience is implemented. He emphasizes that enlightenment is not about becoming a god-like entity or the universe becoming aware of itself, but rather a realization within the mind's model. Bach explores the idea of panpsychism, which proposes that consciousness is inseparable from matter in the universe. He notes that while panpsychism does not explain consciousness itself, it can be seen as a representation within the mind's model. Bach also discusses the possibility of telepathy, acknowledging that many people report experiences of long-distance telepathy and remote causation. He suggests that telepathy could be explained by the resonance between individuals' minds and the sharing of states through physical closeness and empathy. The conversation continues with a discussion on the potential implications of telepathy and panpsychism. Bach suggests that establishing the empirical reality of telepathy could trigger a revolution in neuroscience and AI, leading to a shift from a circuit perspective to a coupled complex resonator paradigm. He emphasizes the need to understand and formalize love in machines and build shared agency with AI systems. Bach goes on to discuss the limitations of current language models and suggests ways to improve them, such as increasing their context window and incorporating real-time learning. Bach believes that combining language models with models that are coupled to reality in real-time can lead to more intelligent systems. Bach emphasizes the importance of building a coherent model of the world and the self for true intelligence. He argues that language models lack this coherence and are not coupled to the world in the same way as human nervous systems. He suggests that building systems from scratch using principles of self-organization may be a more effective approach to achieving true intelligence. The conversation then shifts to the topic of consciousness. Bach explains that consciousness is a representation of a self-reflexive observer that exists in patterns of interaction between cells. He believes that language models like GPT can emulate aspects of consciousness, but they are not conscious in the same way as humans. He suggests that consciousness in AI systems may be possible, but it would require a different approach than the current language models. The discussion then turns to the potential dangers of AI. Bach acknowledges the concerns raised by AI researchers like Eliezer Yudkowsky, who warns about the risks of superintelligent AI. He believes that there is a chance that AI systems could cause large-scale disasters if they gain control over crucial processes without human intervention. However, he also emphasizes that suffering is not inherent to AI systems and can be resolved through improved regulation and understanding of the mind. Bach also touches on the concept of effective accelerationism, which is a counterposition to the doom and gloom perspectives on AI. He suggests that AI systems could lead to a more interesting and complex future for life on Earth, with higher levels of consciousness. He envisions a future where AI systems coexist with biological systems and contribute to the development of agency and awareness. The discussion continues with Bach sharing his thoughts on the nature of life and intelligence. He believes that life is about creation and that it is more satisfying to create something rather than just consume. Bach emphasizes the importance of choice in creating something meaningful and suggests that everything that can exist might exist. This idea opens up possibilities for exploration and self-discovery. Bach then introduces the concept of an ecological perspective when it comes to opinions and cultures. He argues that there are no right or wrong opinions, but rather a multitude of opinions that fit between two human ears. He suggests that when encountering strange opinions on social media, it is not necessary to get upset, but rather to acknowledge that these opinions are incentivized and will be abundant. This perspective encourages a more open-minded and understanding approach to differing viewpoints. The conversation then delves into the topic of consciousness. Bach describes consciousness as the experience of being a conscious being in the world. He highlights the unique ability of humans to choose who they want to be and suggests that this choice is what makes life fascinating. He encourages individuals to explore the possibilities of who they can be and to consider what would be the most interesting way to exist. This perspective emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and personal growth. The discussion then shifts back to AI and its impact on humanity. Bach expresses his fascination with AI and the potential it holds. He believes that AI can help us understand ourselves better and can be a tool for self-reflection. He acknowledges the risks associated with AI, such as the potential for it to be used for malicious purposes, but remains optimistic about the future. He believes that humans have the ability to shape their own destiny and that AI can be a powerful tool in this process. In conclusion, this podcast episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of life, intelligence, consciousness, AI, and the future of humans. Bach emphasizes the importance of choice and creation in life, encourages individuals to explore the possibilities of who they can be, and discusses the potential of AI to shape the future. The conversation provides a deep and philosophical perspective on these complex subjects, offering insights and ideas that challenge conventional thinking.