Jordan Peterson: Nietzsche, Hitler, God, Psychopathy, Suffering & Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #448

Added: Oct 12, 2024

The Influence of Friedrich Nietzsche on Jordan Peterson

Peterson delves into the significant impact that Friedrich Nietzsche has had on his thinking and writing style. He admires Nietzsche's ability to distill complex ideas into succinct, impactful statements, which he finds intellectually stimulating. He emphasizes the importance of engaging with Nietzsche's work, particularly in "Beyond Good and Evil," where Nietzsche explores profound ideas that resonate across time. He believes that great writers like Nietzsche offer insights that warrant granular examination, as their thoughts often contain layers of meaning that can be unpacked and analyzed.

Contemporary Literature vs. Nietzsche

Peterson contrasts Nietzsche's dense and rich writing with contemporary literature, which he often finds lacking in originality and depth. He expresses admiration for other thinkers, such as Mircea Eliade, whose works serve as a counterpoint to postmodern nihilism. Eliade's "The Sacred and the Profane" is highlighted for its rich imagery and complexity, making it endlessly analyzable. He argues that the best writing evokes deep imagery and engages the reader's imagination, which is essential for meaningful communication.

Perception and Action

The conversation shifts to the nature of perception and action, where Peterson posits that perception is not a passive experience but is deeply intertwined with action and goals. He explains that our perceptions are influenced by our aims, and effective communication involves transforming words into images that can lead to action. This understanding of communication highlights the active role individuals play in shaping their perceptions and the world around them.

Unifying Ideas and Ideologies

Peterson addresses the concept of unifying ideas, particularly in the context of ideologies like communism and Nazism. He argues that these ideologies attempt to simplify complex human motivations into singular narratives, which can be both appealing and dangerous. He critiques the notion that power is the sole unifying force in human society, as proposed by postmodern thinkers. Instead, he advocates for a more nuanced understanding of human motivation that recognizes the importance of voluntary cooperation and shared goals.

The Übermensch and Moral Frameworks

The discussion touches on Nietzsche's idea of the Übermensch, which has often been misinterpreted, particularly in the context of its appropriation by figures like Hitler. Peterson clarifies that Nietzsche's concept was not about domination but rather about the flourishing of human potential. He emphasizes that Nietzsche warned of the dangers of the "death of God," suggesting that the loss of a unifying moral framework could lead to chaos and suffering. Peterson believes that Nietzsche foresaw the rise of totalitarian ideologies as a consequence of this moral vacuum.

Religion and Morality

Peterson explores the relationship between religion and morality, arguing that while religious systems can unify people, they can also lead to division. He points out that the best ideas can be misused by the worst actors, creating a complex moral landscape. This duality is evident in the way religious narratives can be weaponized for political ends, as seen in contemporary discussions around Christian ideation in right-wing movements.

Valid and Invalid Unifying Ideas

The conversation delves into the challenge of distinguishing between valid and invalid unifying ideas. Peterson suggests that a key indicator of a beneficial idea is the willingness of its proponents to take responsibility for its consequences. He contrasts this with ideologies that externalize blame and fail to acknowledge the complexities of human motivation and morality.

Critique of Marxism

Peterson critiques the Marxist assertion that "real communism has never been tried," arguing that historical implementations of communism have consistently resulted in catastrophic outcomes. He asserts that the evidence against communism is overwhelming, regardless of the intentions behind its implementation. This leads to a broader discussion about the nature of sacrifice in the context of moral frameworks, where he posits that true holders of ideas must be willing to bear the consequences of their beliefs.

Christianity and Slave Morality

In addressing Nietzsche's critique of Christianity as "slave morality," Peterson argues that this perspective overlooks the complexities of the Christian ethos. He contends that Christianity offers a framework for understanding the internal struggle between good and evil, emphasizing the importance of personal responsibility in moral development. Peterson believes that the battle against evil begins within the individual, and that this internal conflict is essential for achieving harmony in the social world.

The Nature of Play in Structured Systems

The podcast continues with a reflection on the nature of play within structured systems, such as religion and conversation. Peterson suggests that while there are rigid rules governing these systems, they also allow for a dynamic interplay that fosters creativity and growth. He argues that engaging in meaningful dialogue requires adherence to certain principles, which ultimately enhances the quality of the interaction and promotes a deeper understanding of complex ideas.

Religion vs. Communism

Peterson discusses the contrasting characteristics of religion and communism, emphasizing the destructive nature of communism compared to the constructive potential of religious thought. He argues that while communism presents a utopian vision that may seem appealing, it fundamentally fails when applied to large societies due to its reliance on centralized planning and the assumption of human goodness. Peterson posits that the complexity of human interactions in a civilization requires a distributed network of cognition, where individual choices lead to emergent solutions rather than top-down imposition.

The Failure of Centralized Planning

He highlights that communism's failure stems from its inability to scale effectively, as it simplifies complex social dynamics into manageable components for centralized authorities, which is computationally impossible. The example of Soviet authorities needing to make hundreds of pricing decisions daily illustrates the impracticality of such a system. In contrast, religious thought has shown resilience and adaptability over millennia, reflecting a deep understanding of human nature and social dynamics.

The Hero Myth

Peterson delves into the hero myth, which he sees as a narrative that encapsulates the journey of exploration, adaptation, and personal development. He uses the story of Bilbo Baggins in "The Hobbit" as an example of an ordinary individual who embarks on a quest, expanding his personality and wisdom. This quest is tied to the human motivational structure, where basic needs must be met before individuals can explore and grow. He argues that the instinct to develop and explore is fundamental to human nature and is reflected in religious narratives that have stood the test of time.

God as a Call to Adventure

The discussion then shifts to the concept of God, particularly in the context of the Abrahamic tradition. Peterson interprets God as a call to adventure, urging individuals to leave their comfort zones and pursue personal growth. He emphasizes that this journey is not just about individual fulfillment but also about becoming a blessing to others and establishing lasting value. The narrative of Abraham illustrates the importance of responding to the call of adventure, which leads to personal development and societal contribution.

Dark Aspects of Human Nature

Peterson also addresses the darker aspects of human nature, such as envy and resentment, which can derail personal growth. He suggests that gratitude is a powerful antidote to envy, encouraging individuals to celebrate the successes of others rather than allowing jealousy to fester. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing one's own potential and the possibility of incremental improvement, regardless of current circumstances.

Belief in God and Moral Obligation

In discussing the nature of belief in God, Peterson frames it as a relationship between calling and conscience. He argues that individuals are drawn toward certain interests and compelled by a sense of moral obligation. This dynamic helps guide personal development and decision-making. He contrasts this with nihilistic perspectives that deny the inherent goodness of being, suggesting that maintaining faith in oneself and the world is crucial, even in the face of suffering.

Embracing Challenges and Risks

Peterson concludes that the journey of life involves embracing challenges and risks, which can lead to personal transformation. He advocates for a perspective that views truth as a guiding principle, suggesting that aligning oneself with truth can lead to the best possible outcomes, even when immediate circumstances seem dire. This approach encourages individuals to take leaps of faith, trusting that their commitment to truth will ultimately yield positive results.

Advice for Young People

Peterson emphasizes the importance of young men finding their footing in life, particularly in the context of relationships and social status. He notes that young men often face challenges in the mating market, where their default value is low due to a lack of experience and resources. He encourages young men to focus on self-improvement, suggesting that they should "get themselves together" by standing up straight, taking on adventures, and finding their calling. He argues that the pursuit of adventure not only builds character but also enhances attractiveness to potential partners.

The Role of Sexuality

Peterson discusses the role of sexuality as a powerful motivating force in human behavior. He argues that sexual interaction is essential for emotional and social stability, particularly for young men. He references anthropological studies that indicate that young men without access to women can create unstable social situations. He also points out that the pathway of adventure can enhance romantic attractiveness, as men who pursue their interests and passions tend to become more appealing.

The Complexities of Good and Evil

Peterson delves into the complexities of good and evil, referencing historical figures like Churchill and Stalin. He suggests that while both men had significant moral failings, their actions were necessary in the context of fighting against greater evils, such as Hitler. He posits that sometimes, in the face of overwhelming darkness, individuals may need to embrace their own darker aspects to confront evil effectively. Peterson argues that the capacity for good and evil exists within everyone, and that individuals must navigate their own moral landscapes.

Understanding Psychopathy

Peterson addresses the prevalence of psychopathy in society, particularly in the context of politics and social media. He suggests that a small percentage of the population exhibits psychopathic traits, which can be exacerbated by the anonymity and lack of accountability present in online interactions. He argues that these traits are overrepresented in fractious political discourse, where manipulative individuals can exploit social media to gain attention and influence.

The Need for Positive Role Models

Peterson emphasizes the importance of recognizing the difference between psychopathy and the behavior of young people experimenting with cynicism and derision. He believes that many individuals can be socialized out of negative behaviors, especially if they have positive role models. However, he acknowledges that some individuals may become entrenched in their negative patterns, making it difficult for them to change. He advocates for the need to separate anonymous accounts from verified ones on social media to mitigate the influence of bad actors.

The Transformative Power of Hardship

Peterson discusses the profound impact of hardship on personal growth and the development of gratitude. He reflects on a challenging period in his life when he experienced severe illness for three years, describing it as an excruciating ordeal where every moment was filled with pain. This experience taught him the value of gratitude, particularly for the support of his family. He emphasizes that the physical pain he endured was compounded by the psychological toll it took, especially the realization that sleep, which is typically a refuge, became a source of dread as it reset his pain levels each night.

Finding Beauty in Ordinary Experiences

During this time, Peterson learned to appreciate the mundane aspects of life. He recounts a moment when he found himself waiting in a pharmacy, realizing that simply standing there without pain was a significant improvement compared to his previous suffering. This shift in perspective allowed him to find beauty in ordinary experiences, fostering a deeper appreciation for life itself. He acknowledges that his wife, who faced her own battle with a rare form of cancer, also discovered the importance of love and connection during her struggle. Their experiences underscored the idea that the relationships we cherish can provide hope and meaning even in the darkest times.

The Importance of Truth

The conversation transitions to the theme of truth. Peterson discusses the importance of aiming for truth in one’s life and the moral responsibility that comes with it. He argues that the root cause of evil is not economic or sociological but rather spiritual and psychological. This realization led him to commit to telling the truth and orienting his life toward higher ideals. He believes that having a clear aim allows individuals to navigate the complexities of life, distinguishing between truth and falsehood.

The Journey of Seeking Truth

Peterson emphasizes that the process of seeking truth is not straightforward; it requires continual course correction and self-examination. He likens this journey to a high-wire act, where the exploration of ideas can lead to moments of uncertainty and vulnerability. He acknowledges that in the pursuit of truth, one may encounter resistance and backlash, particularly in the current climate of social media, where individuals are often judged harshly for their statements. This environment can stifle open dialogue and discourage exploration of complex ideas.

The Protection of Free Speech

He advocates for the protection of free speech, arguing that it is essential for individuals to express their thoughts, even if they are wrong or controversial. Peterson believes that the ability to engage in open discourse is crucial for personal and societal growth. He warns against the dangers of reducing individuals to their worst statements, as this can inhibit the willingness to engage in meaningful conversations and thought experiments.

Balancing Hope and Cynicism

Throughout the discussion, Peterson reflects on the balance between hope and cynicism. He acknowledges the challenges posed by exposure to negativity, particularly in the context of online interactions. However, he emphasizes the importance of maintaining a positive orientation and moral commitment to the future. He believes that despite the darkness that may exist, it is essential to hold onto faith in the possibility of good prevailing.