Added: Nov 3, 2023
In this podcast episode, Jordan Peterson interviews The Honourable Tony Abbott, an Australian journalist and former prime minister. They discuss various topics including Australia's role on the international stage, the challenges facing the Australian economy and culture, the broader problems facing the West, the impact of the "emissions obsession" on the poor in developing countries, the rise of new religions in the absence of traditional faith, and the looming threat of war with China and Russia.Abbott begins by describing Australia as a country that is significant and interesting, yet not intimidating or threatening to others. He highlights Australia's history of being a welcoming home to migrants from all over the world and its role as an ally to countries like Britain and the United States in times of conflict. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining prosperity and security, which are particularly challenging in the current global climate.
One of the main issues discussed is the "emissions obsession" and the negative impact it has on Australia's economy. Abbott criticizes the irrationality of refusing to use coal and gas in Australia while exporting these resources to countries like China, which continue to rely on them for energy production. He argues that Australia's efforts to reduce emissions are harming the country economically without making a significant difference to global emissions, as other countries like Russia, China, and India are not making the same commitments.
Both Peterson and Abbott question the opposition to nuclear power, which is a reliable and emissions-free source of energy. They argue that if reducing emissions is truly a priority, nuclear power should be embraced, as it has proven to be safe and effective in countries like France. They suggest that the opposition to nuclear power is driven by a religious-like devotion to the green movement, which is often accompanied by an anti-industrial and anti-humanistic worldview.
Abbott also discusses the decline of traditional faith and the rise of a new religious-like devotion to environmentalism. He shares an anecdote about a prayer at a Jesuit church in London that focused on the rapid decarbonization of society, highlighting the religious-like fervor surrounding the green movement. He argues that without a strong faith in traditional institutions and values, people will find new things to have faith in, such as the green movement.
The conversation also touches on the importance of economic development in improving environmental conditions. Abbott and Peterson argue that as countries become wealthier, they are better able to prioritize environmental conservation. They suggest that focusing on lifting people out of poverty and providing access to affordable energy is a more effective way to address environmental concerns than imposing strict emissions reduction measures.
Abbott and Peterson discuss the broader problems facing the West, including cultural issues in education and universities. They argue that there is a lack of rigorous learning and an emphasis on political correctness and indoctrination in these institutions. They also express concerns about the destabilizing actions of China and Russia, particularly in relation to Taiwan and Ukraine.
The conversation then shifts to the topic of personality and the importance of humility in personal growth. Abbott explains that psychologists have identified five dimensions of temperament, one of which is neuroticism. He suggests that self-consciousness is a facet of neuroticism and that focusing too much on oneself can lead to pain and anxiety. In contrast, he argues that finding a superordinate identity outside of oneself, such as in family, community, or faith, can provide a sense of purpose and fulfillment.
Abbott shares his own experiences with faith and how it has shaped his life. He acknowledges that his faith waxes and wanes but emphasizes the importance of respecting and striving after it. He believes that humility is crucial for a successful life and that one must be immersed in tradition and respect it in order to fully flourish.
The conversation then delves into the role of historical stories and the importance of knowing and appreciating one's cultural heritage. Abbott recalls how he was exposed to biographical accounts of greatness from a young age, which instilled in him a respect for tradition and history. He believes that the modern world has become ignorant and scornful of these stories, leading to a loss of cultural knowledge and appreciation.
Abbott attributes his humility and respect for tradition to his upbringing and the positive influences in his life, such as his parents and teachers. He believes that one's experiences with others shape their attitudes and outlook on life. He also emphasizes the importance of choosing the better way, even in the face of suffering and adversity, and finding meaning and gratitude in difficult circumstances.
Abbott emphasizes the need for leaders to say what they mean and do what they say, regardless of their position or role. He believes that being honest and straightforward with people is crucial, and that trust is built on this foundation. He acknowledges that there are different types of leaders, some more brilliant than others, but what matters most is their sincerity and integrity.
Reflecting on his experiences in international politics, Abbott discusses his interactions with world leaders and organizations like the World Economic Forum. He believes that it is important for countries to cooperate, compete, and confront when necessary. He highlights the need for strength and deterrence in dealing with countries like China, which he sees as increasingly oppressive and threatening.
Abbott expresses concern about China's actions, including its support for North Korea and its surveillance state. He believes that the hope that increasing material wealth would lead to political liberalization in China has not materialized. He emphasizes the need for free countries to stand up against China's aggression and support countries like Taiwan in the face of potential invasion.
The conversation then shifts to the situation in Ukraine and Russia. Abbott condemns Russia's actions in Ukraine, describing them as monstrous. He believes that Ukraine should regain its territory and that free countries should support Ukraine militarily and politically. He acknowledges the complexity of the situation but emphasizes the importance of standing up against aggression and dictatorship.
In conclusion, Abbott expresses his admiration for Jordan Peterson's work in reaching a wide international audience, particularly young men, and reminding them of the enduring virtues that have shaped the Western world. He believes that the West should cherish and admire these values and work to renew and take them forward. He emphasizes the need for a self-confident approach and rejects the idea of surrendering to economic, military, or cultural pressures.
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