Joe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Central to Davis' method is patience and genuine respect, even when faced with hostility. Many of those he has engaged with initially refuse to communicate but over time, witnessing positive changes in their peers who have left the movements, some choose a different path themselves. His work underscores the importance of dialogue and the power of seeing an adversary as a fellow human being with hopes, fears, and emotions. Davis' efforts have led hundreds of people to leave hate groups, illustrating that change, even from extreme places, is possible through respect and understanding.

Jeff Schoep's Path into Extremism

Jeff Schoep's narrative provides a stark contrast and a complementary perspective to Davis'. Schoep entered the world of white supremacy and neo-Nazism at a young age, stemming in part from a family history entwined with Nazi Germany. Despite not being personally raised with hateful lessons, he developed a fascination with the ideology in his youth, idolizing his grandfather who fought for the Nazi military. At 18, Schoep actively sought out and joined the National Socialist Movement (NSM), eventually rising to lead the largest neo-Nazi organization in the United States.

Throughout his decades-long involvement, Schoep was deeply immersed in spreading hate and recruiting others, managing the NSM's operations and even running their white power rock music label. His world was insular and driven by an echo chamber of extremist ideals. However, his interactions with Daryl Davis and later a Muslim filmmaker began a profound process of self-reflection and gradual rethinking. Schoep's story is one of transformation, showing that even those who dedicate their lives to hate can find renewed humanity and reject their past.

Meeting Between Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep

Their meeting, arranged initially for a documentary filming, was marked by an unexpected camaraderie. Schoep, anticipating a fierce ideological clash or a debate, was surprised by Davis's calm, respectful demeanor and shared love of music. This encounter humanized Davis to Schoep and planted seeds of doubt regarding the movement Schoep was leading. Despite moments where Schoep tried to assert his extremist ideology, including striking a defiant pose by declaring a willingness to fight for his people, Davis remained steady and non-confrontational.

The meeting laid the groundwork for an ongoing relationship that moved beyond the documentary. Over time, through continued conversations and the influence of other voices like the filmmaker Dia Khan, Schoep's worldview shifted. The interaction between the two men exemplified how peace and connection can be fostered in the most unlikely settings, even among sworn adversaries.

Foundations of White Supremacist Groups

The discussion also delved into the origins and evolution of white supremacist groups like the National Socialist Movement and the Ku Klux Klan. These groups, with roots tracing back to the early 20th century and before, have often exploited fears about demographic changes and societal shifts. Schoep recounted how early exposure to Nazi ideology included reverence for historical figures such as Henry Ford, who propagated anti-Semitic literature, and the glorification of symbols and narratives tied to racial purity.

Racism and anti-Semitism were core tenants from the beginning, often wrapped in pseudo-intellectual rhetoric about racial preservation. The groups have always been structured militarily, with rituals, ranks, and even paramilitary training designed to prepare for an anticipated racial conflict or "race war." This ideology includes unfounded conspiracy theories like the "white genocide" theory, which stokes fear about becoming minorities in America, despite demographic data to the contrary.

Extremism and Tribalism

Both guests highlighted the psychological allure these extremist groups hold, particularly the human need for belonging, purpose, and identity. Schoep detailed how his involvement fulfilled a sense of mission and structure lacking elsewhere in his life, explaining why such groups appeal to disaffected individuals. Davis added nuance by explaining how tribalism – the tendency to form insular groups with an "us vs. them" mentality – fuels hatred and division.

The conversation stressed that such tribal identity and learned hatred are not innate but acquired, meaning they can be unlearned. This is crucial because it provides hope that people caught in extremism can change. Schoep's journey, from recruiter to renouncer, shows that individuals can break free from the psychological chains of extremism when given new purpose and exposure to alternative realities.

Reintegration Challenges for Ex-Extremists

A significant topic covered was the challenge former extremists face upon leaving. Schoep spoke candidly about the isolation, stigma, and guilt that follow leaving such movements. Despite renouncing extremist beliefs, former members carry the label "ex-Nazi" or "former Klan leader," which often eclipses their efforts at reform and creates barriers to social reintegration and employment. This stigma can retraumatize individuals and sometimes push them back toward old networks.

Davis and Schoep emphasized the importance of forgiveness and support systems to help ex-members find new paths. Without societal acceptance and opportunities for healing and growth, many struggle to replace the sense of belonging once provided by hate groups. The podcast underscored that sustainable escape from extremist ideologies requires compassionate infrastructure that supports emotional and practical transitions.

Media's Role in Extremism and Recruitment

The podcast explored how both traditional media and social media platforms affect extremist groups' ability to recruit and spread their ideology. Extremists exploit media coverage of violence and unrest to paint their narratives of societal collapse and racial conflict, attracting recruits eager to "take back their country." Schoep revealed that violent clashes and riots, often sensationalized, are used as recruiting tools to galvanize supporters.

Today's digital landscape complicates the matter, providing easy access to extremist content and communities. Schoep noted that, unlike in earlier decades when one had to consciously seek out physical groups, now children and adults alike can stumble upon recruitment material online with alarming ease. This has led to a proliferation of extremist podcasts, videos, and forums designed to normalize hate, making combating these ideologies more complex.

White Supremacist Fear

A poignant insight was shared about the fear within white supremacist groups regarding changing U.S. demographics. Davis recounted that these movements fear the increasing diversity of the population, with projections showing non-white populations becoming a majority within a few decades. This demographic shift is interpreted by extremists as an existential threat, fueling dangerous conspiracy theories like "white genocide" and "replacement theory."

The guests discussed how this fear is exploited to drive recruitment and radicalization, with forces trying to preserve a racial "purity" that is biologically unfounded. Davis underscored that this fear is irrational but deeply entrenched in extremist ideology, explaining why these groups continue to thrive despite overwhelming evidence contradicting their beliefs.

Disarming Hate

Davis repeatedly stressed that hate can be diffused through personal interaction and empathy. His unique method of building friendships with those in hate groups works because it challenges dehumanization with genuine human connection. Examples such as sharing dinners with Klansmen, attending rallies, and even being gifted Klansmen's robes upon their quitting illustrate that hate often dissolves under the weight of kindness and understanding.

A core lesson is that initial curiosity and non-judgmental listening create openings for individuals to question their deeply held beliefs. By showing respect without condoning harmful ideologies, Davis facilitates situations where cognitive dissonance can blossom into change, offering a hopeful template for conflict resolution and deradicalization.

Contrasting Upbringings

The podcast illuminated how differing childhood experiences shape perceptions of race and "the other." Davis grew up internationally as the son of a diplomat, attending diverse schools with classmates from numerous backgrounds, which normalized multiculturalism for him. His early exposure to a global community instilled a worldview that transcended race and tribalism.

In stark contrast, Schoep was raised in a rural, predominantly white environment with little exposure to racial diversity, relying heavily on ideological indoctrination through extremist groups for his worldview. This contrast highlights how environment, upbringing, and exposure influence susceptibility to extremist ideologies and underscores the potential of education and diverse experiences in combating hate.

The Importance of Forgiveness

The dialogue concluded with a focus on fostering a pro-human outlook rather than an "anti" mentality. Davis introduced the concept of being "pro-human" as central to moving beyond racism and extremism, shifting the conversation from opposition to hate toward embracing shared humanity and positive values. This approach emphasizes respect, love, and fairness rather than solely combatting negative behavior.

Forgiveness emerged as an essential component in healing and reintegration, both at individual and societal levels. Without the willingness to forgive, hate breeds perpetually, and individuals struggle to escape their past mistakes. The guests advocated for empathy and inclusion as tools to bridge divides, encouraging listeners to engage in whatever capacity they feel comfortable—whether on the front lines or through supportive roles—to collectively foster a more understanding and united society.

Reflections on Hope and the Future

Despite the prevalence of hate and division, both Davis and Schoep expressed a cautious optimism about the future. The very visibility of racism and extremist ideologies in today's discourse, amplified by media and social networks, while overwhelming, also brings opportunity for awareness and intervention. They noted that the current era is the best time to address systemic hate because ignorance can no longer be maintained as easily.

Both emphasized that change is a process, often gradual and uneven. While some individuals remain entrenched in hateful beliefs, many are walking away every day, inspired by stories of transformation like Schoep's or reaching out for help because of the positive examples set by people like Davis. Their joint work continues to encourage hope that understanding and peace, though hard-won, are attainable goals.