Joe Rogan Experience #2360 - Caroline Fraser

Fraser explains that her investigation started somewhat serendipitously when she encountered a real estate ad mentioning arsenic remediation on Vashon Island, near Tacoma, Washington. This led her to uncover the history of a major lead and copper smelter in Tacoma, which had been operating for nearly a century and had heavily polluted the surrounding environment. She connects this environmental contamination to the behavioral effects of lead exposure, such as increased aggression and violence, which may have played a role in the emergence of serial killers and elevated crime rates in the region.

Lead Pollution and Its Effects on Behavior

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the toxic effects of lead exposure on human behavior, especially in children. Fraser highlights that lead is a neurotoxin linked to a range of cognitive and behavioral problems, including lowered IQ, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and increased aggression. She points out that these effects have been documented not only in areas with industrial pollution but also in places affected by leaded gasoline, which was widely used until the 1990s.

The conversation delves into how lead exposure damages the frontal cortex of the brain, impairing impulse control and decision-making. Fraser notes that this damage is more pronounced in males, which may partly explain why violent crime and serial killings are predominantly male phenomena. The long-term consequences of lead poisoning extend beyond childhood, influencing behavior well into adolescence and adulthood, thereby potentially contributing to the crime wave seen in the 1970s and 1980s.

Serial Killers of the Pacific Northwest

Fraser discusses the unusually high number of serial killers emerging from the Pacific Northwest during the 1970s, including infamous figures like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer. She contextualizes their upbringing in heavily polluted environments, with both men growing up near the Tacoma smelter and being exposed to lead and other toxins. Fraser emphasizes that while lead exposure alone does not cause someone to become a serial killer, it may have been a contributing factor alongside other personal and social influences.

The episode also touches on lesser-known serial killers and unresolved violent crimes in the region, such as the dismemberment murders and cold cases in Idaho. Fraser points out that 1974 was a particularly active year for serial killers in the area, with multiple offenders operating simultaneously. This clustering of violent crime raises questions about environmental and societal factors that may have created a perfect storm for such behavior.

Historical Context of Industrial Pollution

The discussion broadens to the history of leaded gasoline and industrial pollution in the United States. Fraser explains that leaded gasoline was introduced in the 1920s as a solution to engine knocking, despite early warnings from medical professionals about its dangers. The decision to use lead additives was driven by corporate profit motives, as alternatives like ethanol could not be patented and monetized. This led to widespread environmental contamination affecting millions of people over decades.

Fraser also highlights the role of smelters, such as the one in Tacoma and others in places like El Paso, Texas, and Kellogg, Idaho, in releasing heavy metals into the environment. These facilities emitted arsenic, lead, cadmium, and other toxins that settled into soil, water, and air, creating long-lasting pollution plumes. The episode underscores how these pollutants accumulated in residential areas, playgrounds, and schools, exposing entire communities to harmful substances.

Corporate Malfeasance and Environmental Negligence

A dark theme running through the conversation is the moral failure of corporations and their complicity in environmental poisoning. Fraser recounts how companies knowingly continued to operate smelters and other polluting facilities despite evidence of harm to workers and nearby residents. In one chilling example from Idaho, a smelter continued to operate for over a year after a fire destroyed its pollution filters, releasing toxic dust that severely poisoned children in the area.

Fraser describes how corporate interests often prioritized profits over human lives, conducting cost-benefit analyses that deemed the health and lives of exposed populations as acceptable losses. She draws parallels between this behavior and the psychopathy seen in serial killers, suggesting that corporate executives who knowingly harm people for financial gain exhibit similar traits of callousness and lack of empathy.

The Role of Environmental Toxins Beyond Lead

While lead is the primary focus, Fraser also discusses other environmental toxins that may contribute to aggression and health problems. These include arsenic, cadmium, zinc, manganese, and particulate pollution, all of which were prevalent in industrial regions. She notes that arsenic, used historically as a pesticide and emitted by smelters, is a potent poison linked to cancer and neurological damage.

The episode also touches on the legacy of pesticides like DDT, which were widely used in agriculture and have been implicated in neurological disorders and paralysis that were sometimes misdiagnosed as polio. Fraser highlights how these chemicals have had devastating effects on both human and animal populations, often disproportionately impacting poor and rural communities.

The Intersection of True Crime and Female Interest

Rogan raises an intriguing cultural observation about the disproportionate interest women have in true crime and serial killer stories. Fraser offers insight into this phenomenon, suggesting that women's fascination with true crime may stem from their lived experiences of fear and vulnerability to male violence. She explains that many women have personal or societal reasons to be attuned to stories of aggression and danger, which may explain the popularity of true crime media among female audiences.

Fraser also shares her own personal connection to the topic, having grown up near the sites of Ted Bundy's early crimes and witnessing the fear and confusion that gripped her community. This personal history fueled her desire to understand the broader social and environmental factors behind such violence, rather than simply recounting the crimes themselves.

The Challenges of Environmental Remediation

The podcast explores the practical difficulties involved in cleaning up contaminated land. Fraser describes how in Tacoma, the EPA and other agencies undertook massive soil replacement projects to remove lead and arsenic from residential yards and public spaces. However, these efforts are costly, incomplete, and often leave behind contaminated "hot spots" that continue to pose risks.

She explains that remediation can be ecologically destructive, as removing contaminated soil also disrupts the natural ecosystem, including plants, fungi, and microbial networks. Additionally, some contaminated materials are simply contained in large plastic-lined pits, such as the "arsenic kitchen" waste stored near Everett, Washington, which remains a potential environmental hazard despite being capped and isolated.

Broader Environmental and Public Health Issues

Fraser and Rogan discuss other environmental health concerns beyond industrial pollution, including the presence of microplastics in the human body and the dangers of fluoride in drinking water. Fraser critiques the widespread use of fluoride, noting studies linking it to lowered IQ and questioning the rationale behind its addition to public water supplies. She emphasizes the need for greater public awareness and regulatory oversight to prevent ongoing exposure to neurotoxins.

The conversation also touches on the impact of air pollution from wood stoves, coal, and wildfires, particularly in regions with stagnant air like Puget Sound. Fraser notes that while some progress has been made in reducing industrial emissions and lead exposure, many environmental hazards persist, and new challenges continue to emerge as modern pollutants accumulate in ecosystems and human bodies.

The Legacy of War and Environmental Damage

The episode briefly examines the environmental consequences of war, highlighting how World War II and earlier conflicts contributed to heavy metal pollution through the production of munitions and military vehicles. Fraser points out that many Superfund sites in the U.S. can trace their contamination back to wartime industrial activity.

They also discuss the "red zone" in northeastern France, a vast area rendered uninhabitable due to unexploded ordnance and chemical contamination from World War I. This example illustrates how environmental damage from human conflict can persist for generations, creating long-term hazards that are difficult or impossible to remediate fully.

Reflections on Writing and Public Reception

Toward the end of the episode, Fraser reflects on the process of writing Murderland and the challenges of presenting complex, disturbing material in an accessible way. She wanted to avoid a purely academic tone and instead tell a compelling narrative that would engage readers and encourage them to think critically about environmental toxins and their societal impacts.

Fraser shares that the book has elicited a range of responses, from skepticism about the link between pollution and serial killers to gratitude from people connected to affected communities. She recounts hearing from the daughter of a smelter worker who was a union activist exposing corporate malfeasance, underscoring the human stories behind the environmental data. Fraser hopes her work will raise awareness and inspire action to address ongoing pollution and protect future generations.