Joe Rogan Experience #2357 - Sarko Gergerian

Sarko's path took a pivotal turn when he attended the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference, where he encountered Rick Doblin of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies). This meeting introduced him to the clinical potential of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, especially for treatment-resistant PTSD. Sarko's story is one of transformation—from a traditional law enforcement officer to an advocate for psychedelic medicine, emphasizing the need for healing within the police community and beyond.

The Role of Psychedelic Science Conferences and Safety Concerns

Sarko describes his involvement in psychedelic science conferences, particularly highlighting the sensitive dynamics at events like Psychedelic Science 2023 and 2025. These conferences bring together diverse groups, including Jewish, Palestinian, and Arab practitioners, which can create tensions given the geopolitical conflicts underlying these identities. Sarko was invited to help maintain safety and security, not just from a physical standpoint but also to manage emotional and political sensitivities.

He recounts incidents such as disruptions during presentations, including one involving Rick Doblin, where protestors were allowed on stage to voice their concerns. Sarko emphasizes the importance of handling such disruptions with care and respect, noting that Psychedelic Science 2025 made strides in providing space for all voices to be heard. This approach reflects the broader ethos of psychedelic communities—valuing dialogue, empathy, and inclusivity even amid conflict.

Law Enforcement and Psychedelic Therapy

Sarko's dual identity as a law enforcement officer and psychedelic therapist is central to the conversation. He explains that he is likely the first law enforcement professional to receive a religious exemption to access psychedelics legally within his workplace. This exemption is groundbreaking, given the traditional stigma and legal restrictions surrounding psychedelics in policing circles.

He discusses the challenges police officers face, including high rates of trauma exposure, suicide, and mental health struggles. Sarko argues that psychedelic-assisted therapy, particularly with MDMA, offers a promising avenue for healing these invisible wounds. He highlights the moral injury many officers experience when enforcing drug laws they personally find unjust, especially regarding cannabis. His advocacy is rooted in a desire to bring compassionate, effective mental health care to first responders who often suffer in silence.

The Historical and Cultural Context of Psychedelic Prohibition

The episode delves into the historical roots of psychedelic and cannabis prohibition, tracing back to the 1930s and earlier. Sarko recounts the story of William Randolph Hearst and the invention of the decorticator, a machine that could efficiently process hemp fiber. Hemp posed a significant economic threat to Hearst's paper mills and timber interests, leading to a propaganda campaign that demonized cannabis and hemp under the newly coined term "marijuana."

This campaign included racist and xenophobic narratives targeting Mexican and Black communities, which fueled the passage of restrictive drug laws. Sarko connects this history to the broader war on drugs, emphasizing that the criminalization of plants like cannabis was less about public health and more about protecting industrial and political interests. This legacy continues to influence drug policy and law enforcement practices today.

The Science and Efficacy of Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy

Sarko provides an overview of the clinical research supporting psychedelic-assisted therapy, particularly MDMA's efficacy in treating severe, treatment-resistant PTSD. He shares his firsthand experience participating in federally sanctioned research protocols, including undergoing MDMA therapy himself. This personal journey deepened his understanding of the medicine's transformative potential.

He explains the therapeutic model involving preparation, controlled dosing sessions, and integration, all conducted in clinical settings. Sarko highlights the challenges faced by researchers, including regulatory hurdles and skepticism from the FDA, which delayed MDMA's medical approval despite compelling data. He stresses that psychedelic therapy is not about escapism but about confronting and healing trauma, often with profound and lasting results.

The War on Drugs and Its Impact on Communities and Law Enforcement

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the ongoing consequences of the war on drugs. Sarko critiques the criminalization of non-violent drug offenses, particularly cannabis possession, and the resulting moral injury inflicted on law enforcement officers tasked with enforcing these laws. He points out the disproportionate impact on Black and Brown communities, as well as the broader societal harm caused by mass incarceration.

Sarko calls for a reevaluation of law enforcement's role, urging officers to question whether they are protecting community members or serving industry interests. He advocates for a shift toward policies that prioritize health, healing, and community well-being over punitive measures. This perspective challenges entrenched systems and calls for systemic reform.

Safe Supply, Harm Reduction, and Public Health Approaches

The conversation turns to the concept of safe supply and harm reduction as pragmatic solutions to drug-related harms. Sarko discusses the dangers of illicit drug markets, including contamination with fentanyl and other adulterants, which have led to numerous overdose deaths. He argues that prohibition fuels these unsafe conditions by driving supply underground.

Sarko highlights examples of harm reduction strategies, such as supervised consumption sites and medically regulated access to substances like heroin in Canada. He stresses the importance of integrating law enforcement with public health efforts, citing his own work in Winthrop, Massachusetts, where police collaborate with health professionals to connect individuals to services rather than defaulting to arrest. This model exemplifies a compassionate, community-centered approach to drug-related issues.

The Role of Public Perception and Media in Drug Policy

Sarko and Joe Rogan explore how public perception shapes drug policy and regulatory decisions. They note that decades of propaganda have ingrained negative stereotypes about psychedelics and other substances, portraying users as weak or dangerous. This stigma influences political decisions and slows progress toward legalization and medical acceptance.

The rise of the internet, podcasts, and documentaries has begun to shift public opinion by providing access to accurate information and personal stories of healing. Sarko emphasizes the power of open dialogue and education in changing hearts and minds, which in turn pressures policymakers to reconsider outdated laws. He also critiques mainstream media's focus on fear, division, and sensationalism, which perpetuates misunderstanding and mistrust.

The Intersection of Spirituality, Religion, and Psychedelics

An intriguing part of the discussion centers on the spiritual dimensions of psychedelic experiences. Sarko shares his own mystical experiences with MDMA and ketamine, describing feelings of profound love, gratitude, and connection to divine energies. He references the work of Paul Stamets and others who advocate for integrating Western science with indigenous wisdom to fully appreciate psychedelics' potential.

The episode touches on controversial theories, such as John Marco Allegro's hypothesis that early Christian rituals involved psychedelic mushrooms. Sarko reflects on the sacredness of these substances and their historical role in religious and fertility rites. He suggests that psychedelics may facilitate spiritual awakening and a deeper understanding of interconnectedness, challenging materialistic worldviews.

Challenges and Opportunities in Changing Drug Laws

Sarko candidly discusses the slow and arduous process of reforming drug laws, both in the United States and internationally. He recounts his experience speaking at the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Drugs, where bureaucratic negotiations over terminology and harm reduction policies proceed at a glacial pace. Despite the World Health Organization's recognition that Schedule I drug classifications are unscientific, meaningful change remains elusive.

He acknowledges the political risks faced by regulators and lawmakers who support psychedelic legalization, given lingering stigma and public skepticism. Sarko remains hopeful, however, citing recent endorsements of psilocybin decriminalization by professional psychiatric organizations and growing bipartisan support for initiatives like Texas's Ibegan program. He stresses the importance of continued advocacy, education, and coalition-building.

The Future of Policing: Recovery-Oriented Community Policing

Toward the end of the episode, Sarko outlines a vision for the future of policing that embraces recovery-oriented community policing. Drawing from his own experience in Winthrop, he describes a program where officers proactively engage with individuals facing mental health and substance use challenges, connecting them to public health resources rather than defaulting to arrest.

This approach requires adequate funding, training, and a cultural shift within law enforcement agencies to prioritize guardianship and healing over punishment. Sarko argues that such models can reduce recidivism, improve community trust, and address the root causes of many crises officers encounter. He stresses that traditional enforcement remains necessary but must be balanced with compassionate, preventative strategies.