Joe Rogan Experience #2343 - Joe Pistone

Pistone’s upbringing in an Italian neighborhood in Paterson, New Jersey, where he was familiar with the culture and the "wise guys," gave him a unique advantage. This familiarity with the streets and the Mafia lifestyle made it easier for him to blend in during his undercover operations. His first undercover work involved infiltrating a gambling house in Jacksonville, Florida, where he felt comfortable due to his background with card games and craps. This initial experience laid the foundation for his later, more dangerous assignments.

Undercover Work and Infiltration of the Mob

Pistone’s transition from gambling cases to infiltrating the Mafia was gradual. After several years of undercover work, he was introduced to a crew involved in stealing high-end automobiles along the East Coast. To gain credibility, he learned the technical skills of car theft, including hot-wiring and disabling alarms. This hands-on experience was crucial in establishing his street credibility and trust within the criminal circles.

Eventually, Pistone was tasked with infiltrating the Banano crime family in New York. To do this, he adopted the persona of Donnie Brasco, a jewel thief, which required him to attend diamond school and learn about precious gems, lock-picking, safes, and alarm systems. This preparation was essential because any lack of knowledge could have exposed him. He rented an apartment, bought a car, and created a full backstory, including being an orphan with no family ties, to avoid inconsistencies that could be checked by the Mafia.

Building Trust and Navigating Mafia Culture

Pistone’s approach to gaining trust within the Mafia was methodical and patient. He frequented bars and social clubs where wise guys and their associates gathered, carefully observing and engaging in minimal conversation to avoid suspicion. His strategy was to appear disinterested in their real business, which paradoxically made them trust him more. He understood the importance of knowing the Mafia’s protocols, such as how introductions were made and the significance of going “on record” with a captain to protect an associate.

One of the most intense moments in his infiltration was when he was confronted by made men who doubted his skills as a thief. Pistone had to navigate a tense four-hour interrogation, culminating in a physical altercation that could have ended his life. His ability to stay calm, honest, and assertive without disrespecting the Mafia hierarchy was key to surviving and solidifying his place in the organization.

Relationships with Key Mafia Figures

Throughout his undercover career, Pistone developed relationships with several prominent Mafia members, including captains and made men. He described his interactions with figures like Lefty Rogerio and Sunny Black, who were influential within the Banano family. These relationships were complex, blending moments of camaraderie with the ever-present danger of betrayal and violence.

Pistone recounted how some of these men, like Tony Mirror, were volatile and dangerous, while others, like Sunny Black, showed a more human side, such as sharing quiet mornings watching cartoons or engaging in friendly arm wrestling. These personal anecdotes highlight the duality of Mafia life—brutal and ruthless on one hand, yet marked by moments of loyalty and friendship on the other.

Undercover Operations Beyond New York

Pistone’s undercover work extended beyond New York, including operations in Florida and even overseas. He detailed a significant operation involving a vending machine business in Milwaukee, which required coordination between Mafia families in New York, Chicago, and Milwaukee. This operation demonstrated the interconnectedness of Mafia families and the complexity of their business dealings.

Additionally, Pistone worked with Scotland Yard in London on a case involving the Chinese triads and credit card fraud. This international experience showcased his adaptability and the trust he earned from law enforcement agencies abroad. His ability to blend into different criminal cultures and maintain his cover was a testament to his skill and professionalism.

Challenges and Dangers of Undercover Life

Living undercover for over six years, Pistone faced constant danger and psychological strain. He described the job as a seven-day-a-week commitment, with long hours and no breaks, requiring him to be “on” at all times. The fear of being discovered and the potential consequences—being killed by the Mafia—were ever-present.

Despite the risks, Pistone never carried a gun during his undercover work, reflecting the Mafia’s own practices of not openly carrying weapons to avoid police attention. He also emphasized the importance of maintaining his true personality and values, such as abstaining from heavy drinking and drug use, which helped him stay grounded and avoid the pitfalls that ensnare many undercover agents.

The Mafia’s Code and Culture

Pistone provided deep insights into the Mafia’s code of conduct and internal culture. He explained the significance of respect, hierarchy, and the rules that govern interactions among members. For example, he noted that no one could lay hands on a made man without risking death, and that introductions and going “on record” were critical for protection within the family.

He also discussed the Mafia’s involvement in various illegal enterprises, including hijacking, gambling, narcotics, and stolen goods. The Mafia’s control over unions, businesses, and even political figures was extensive during his time undercover, illustrating their deep-rooted influence in American society.

The Decline of the Mafia and Changing Culture

Reflecting on the current state of organized crime, Pistone observed that the Mafia’s power has significantly diminished. He attributed this decline to several factors, including increased law enforcement pressure, the rise of drug addiction among members, and the inability to cultivate political and judicial influence as effectively as in the past.

Pistone also noted a cultural shift within the Mafia, where younger members are less committed and more self-centered compared to the old-timers who viewed the Mafia as a lifelong commitment. The advent of technology, surveillance, and the internet has made undercover work and criminal operations more challenging, as secrets are harder to keep and identities easier to expose.

The Impact of Technology and Surveillance

The episode highlighted how modern technology has transformed both law enforcement and criminal enterprises. Pistone explained that today’s undercover agents face the daunting task of building a credible legend in an age where social media, Google image searches, and constant surveillance make it difficult to maintain cover.

He also pointed out that the average person is captured on camera hundreds of times a day, and phone conversations are often monitored, making clandestine activities riskier. This technological landscape has changed the nature of undercover work, requiring new strategies and heightened caution.

Life After Undercover Work

After the operation was shut down, Pistone faced ongoing threats to his safety, including a $500,000 contract on his life by the Mafia. The FBI took extensive measures to protect him, including multiple relocations. Despite these dangers, Pistone never stopped worrying about potential retaliation, acknowledging that the threat of “cowboys” or opportunists seeking notoriety remained.

He also shared that he maintained a strict policy of never arresting anyone he worked closely with undercover, leaving that to other agents. This approach helped preserve his cover and relationships, and none of the Mafia members he infiltrated ever became informants themselves, underscoring the loyalty and code of silence within the organization.

Personal Reflections and Legacy

Pistone reflected on the psychological toll and surreal nature of his undercover experience. He admitted that while the Mafia lifestyle had its perks, such as respect and VIP treatment, the constant fear of death or imprisonment made it unattractive. He also emphasized that he never fell in love with the undercover persona, which helped him maintain his sanity.

The episode concluded with Pistone discussing his ongoing involvement in law enforcement education, including supporting gang conferences and donating proceeds from his merchandise to families of fallen officers. He also spoke warmly about his friendship with Johnny Depp, who portrayed him in the film "Donnie Brasco," sharing anecdotes about Depp’s dedication to accurately capturing his character and their enduring friendship.