Joe Rogan Experience #2183 - Norman Ohler
Added: Aug 2, 2024
In this podcast episode, Norman Ohler, a German novelist turned non-fiction writer, discusses his books "Blitzed" and "Tripped" with Joe Rogan. Ohler's journey into researching drugs in Nazi Germany began when he was looking for a new writing subject. A DJ friend suggested exploring Nazis and drugs, which initially seemed implausible to Ohler. However, his interest was piqued when he learned about Pervitin, a methamphetamine used during the Third Reich.
Ohler's research led him to various archives, including the memorial of the Dachau concentration camp. There, he discovered documents relating to SS experiments with psychoactive substances. This discovery prompted him to investigate further, leading him to the National Archives in the United States, where many of these documents had been transferred after the war.
Nazi Germany and Methamphetamine
Ohler explains that the Nazis' use of methamphetamine began around 1938 when the drug was introduced to the market under the brand name Pervitin. It was initially marketed as a performance-enhancing substance and was widely available without prescription. The German population, including workers and party-goers, embraced the drug for its stimulating effects.
The military application of methamphetamine came into play when Professor Otto Ranke, head of the Institute for Defense Physiology, began researching ways to combat fatigue among soldiers. Ranke conducted tests comparing the effects of Pervitin, caffeine, and placebos on soldiers' alertness and performance. The results showed that Pervitin kept soldiers awake and alert for extended periods, though it also slightly impaired complex thinking.
Blitzkrieg and Drug Use
Ohler reveals that the German military's use of methamphetamine played a crucial role in the success of the Blitzkrieg strategy, particularly during the invasion of France. The German army ordered 35 million doses of Pervitin just before the attack. Tank troops, who needed to advance continuously for days without sleep, were the primary recipients of the drug.
The author contrasts this with the French army's approach, which allowed soldiers to consume significant amounts of red wine daily. This difference in stimulants - methamphetamine for the Germans and alcohol for the French - may have contributed to the rapid German victory.
Hitler's Drug Use
Ohler's research into Hitler's personal physician, Theodor Morell, revealed the progression of Hitler's drug use throughout the war. Initially, from 1936 to 1941, Hitler primarily received vitamin injections. However, after falling ill in 1941, Hitler demanded stronger substances, leading to the use of opioids like Eukodal.
Hitler's drug regimen expanded to include animal hormone extracts and other experimental concoctions created by Morell. By 1943, Hitler's health began to deteriorate, likely due to the effects of these substances. In the later stages of the war, Hitler became heavily dependent on oxycodone and cocaine, which affected his decision-making and behavior.
LSD and the CIA
Ohler's book "Tripped" explores the history of LSD, including its discovery by Albert Hofmann at Sandoz Laboratories in Switzerland. The author describes how the CIA became interested in LSD's potential as a truth serum or mind control agent, leading to the MK-Ultra program.
The conversation touches on the CIA's efforts to control the global supply of LSD and their covert funding of LSD research through various foundations. Ohler suggests that this involvement by intelligence agencies may have contributed to the eventual criminalization of LSD and other psychedelics.
Psychedelics and Society
The podcast delves into the potential benefits of psychedelics, particularly in treating conditions like depression, PTSD, and addiction. Ohler shares his personal experience of giving his mother, who suffers from Alzheimer's, low doses of LSD and psilocybin, noting improvements in her condition.
The conversation explores the idea that psychedelics could have transformative effects on society if used responsibly and with proper research. Ohler and Rogan discuss the need for a more open approach to studying these substances and the potential for creating new rituals or structures for their use in society.
Historical Implications and Modern Parallels
Ohler draws parallels between the use of stimulants in World War II and more recent conflicts, mentioning the use of Captagon (another amphetamine-type stimulant) in the Middle East. He also touches on the irony that oxycodone, Hitler's favored opioid, is now at the center of the opioid crisis in the United States.
The author speculates on how drug use may have influenced major historical events, including the possibility that JFK's famous "peace speech" at American University might have been influenced by an LSD experience facilitated by Mary Pinchot Meyer.
Reflections on Drug Policy and Research
Throughout the conversation, Ohler and Rogan criticize the current approach to drug policy, arguing that prohibition has hindered valuable research and potentially beneficial uses of various substances. They discuss the contradiction between the illegality of many drugs and the widespread prescription of amphetamine-like substances such as Adderall.
The podcast concludes with a call for more open and honest discourse about drugs, their effects, and their potential uses. Ohler emphasizes the need for a global narrative that recognizes our shared humanity and the potential for substances like psychedelics to contribute to personal and societal growth.
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