James Sexton: Divorce Lawyer on Marriage, Relationships, Sex, Lies & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #396

Added: Sep 19, 2023

Sexton believes that the most common reason marriages fail is disconnection. He emphasizes the importance of understanding what causes disconnection in order to address the underlying issues. He suggests that it is not a single big event that leads to disconnection, but rather a series of little things that accumulate over time.

He also highlights the toxic message portrayed in popular media, where long-term relationships are often depicted as filled with criticism and contempt. Sexton argues that this kind of behavior is detrimental to relationships and that couples should instead support and cheer for each other. He believes that successful relationships are built on a foundation of mutual respect and admiration.

Sexton encourages open and honest communication in relationships, including discussing both the positive and negative aspects. He believes that it is important to express love and appreciation for each other, as well as address any concerns or issues that arise. He suggests that communication should be fearless and that couples should be able to discuss their desires, fantasies, and insecurities without judgment.

The podcast also touches on the idea of vulnerability in relationships. Sexton believes that vulnerability is essential for intimacy and that couples should be willing to expose their true selves to each other. He argues that hiding parts of oneself can lead to distance and ultimately the breakdown of the relationship. He encourages couples to embrace vulnerability and be open with each other.

Sexton draws parallels between relationships and jiu-jitsu, highlighting the need to take risks and create vulnerabilities in order to make progress. He believes that love is a courageous act, as it involves accepting the possibility of loss. He encourages people to appreciate the good times in relationships and not to focus solely on the negative aspects.

The podcast also explores the idea of memory and how it can shape our perception of relationships. Sexton suggests that memory is kind and tends to fade negative experiences over time. He encourages people to remember the positive moments and the love they shared, even if the relationship ends. He believes that relationships should be seen as chapters in a book, with each chapter having its own significance and contributing to the overall story of one's life.

Sexton acknowledges that betrayal, such as infidelity, can have a lasting impact on relationships. He notes that the hurt and anger from betrayal can persist for years. However, he also suggests that in many cases, the relationship may not have been in a healthy state prior to the betrayal. He encourages couples to reflect on their own contributions to the relationship and to consider whether it was truly meeting both partners' needs.

Sexton continues by acknowledging that people in relationships may have good intentions but still fail to meet their partner's needs or understand their needs. He believes that there are no clear-cut good guys or bad guys in relationships, as it is a complicated and nuanced dynamic.

He also highlights the shame associated with infidelity and the difficulty of labeling someone as a cheater or a victim. Sexton explains that as a divorce lawyer, he represents both the cheater and the cheated, forcing him to empathize with both sides and understand their perspectives.

The conversation then shifts to the absurdity of love and relationships. Sexton shares his belief that life shouldn't be taken too seriously and that laughter is essential. He humorously reflects on the vulnerability and absurdity of love, drawing parallels between love and the act of masturbation.

As a divorce lawyer, Sexton often has to read text messages and emails between couples involved in infidelity. He describes the entertaining and ridiculous nature of these exchanges, highlighting the lengths people go to in order to meet and have secret affairs. He also mentions that even powerful and famous individuals engage in such behavior, which he finds both pathetic and hilarious.

The discussion then delves into the complexities of relationships and the challenges faced in divorce proceedings. Sexton explains that most states are now no-fault states, meaning that the reason for divorce, such as infidelity, does not affect the legal process. However, in some cases, infidelity can be used to prove wasteful dissipation of marital assets, which can impact the division of property.

Sexton shares anecdotes from his experience as a divorce lawyer, including instances where clients have admitted to their infidelity in court. He explains that owning up to one's mistakes can sometimes help their credibility and disarm the opposing counsel. He also emphasizes the importance of not taking text messages too seriously, as they often lack nuance and can lead to misunderstandings.

The conversation then turns to the highly publicized divorce case between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Sexton discusses the complexities and flaws of their relationship, highlighting that both parties had their moments of looking awful. He emphasizes that relationships are messy and that it is essential to understand the complexities and contradictions within them.

Sexton also reflects on the pain and loss associated with love, drawing parallels to his experiences as a hospice volunteer. He believes that knowing the impermanence of life intensifies the feeling of love and connection. He shares his personal experiences with dogs, explaining that even after losing a beloved pet, the capacity for love remains infinite.

The podcast continues with a discussion on the importance of connection and empathy. Sexton believes that connection is the core of everything and that his profession as a divorce lawyer allows him to build connections with his clients. He emphasizes the need for empathy and understanding in his work, as he must see the vulnerabilities and strengths of his clients from different perspectives.

Sexton continues by addressing the common misconception that divorce lawyers have exciting and scandalous stories to share. He explains that people are often more interested in hearing about dramatic and scandalous divorces involving infidelity or other sensational elements, rather than the more amicable and peaceful separations. Sexton acknowledges that these stories can be interesting from a legal perspective, but emphasizes that the focus should be on building healthy and fulfilling relationships.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of successful romantic relationships. Sexton suggests that the key to a successful relationship is connection, affection, mindfulness, and presence. He believes that most people want their partners to be fully present and engaged, rather than being disconnected or distracted. Sexton also emphasizes the importance of maintaining individual identities within a relationship, encouraging partners to remember their own independence and interests.

Sexton shares his personal experience of divorce, highlighting the benefits of a well-managed and amicable separation. He explains that he had a positive co-parenting relationship with his ex-wife, allowing both of them to focus on their children and enjoy their own leisure time without the full-time responsibilities of parenting. He believes that divorced couples can have a wonderful experience if they approach it with the right mindset and prioritize the well-being of their children.

The conversation then turns to the topic of successful relationships with high-performing individuals. Sexton explains that high-performing individuals, such as CEOs, often have a disciplined and routine-oriented approach to life. However, divorce can be a significant disruption to their control and stability. Sexton highlights the challenges of complex financial cases, custody disputes, and the impact of divorce on high-performing individuals.

Sexton also discusses the cost of divorce, explaining that it can vary greatly depending on the complexity and duration of the case. He mentions that the cheapest divorce he has seen involved two individuals who reached an agreement on their own and simply needed legal documentation. On the other hand, he has seen cases where clients have paid millions of dollars in legal fees due to the complexity and duration of the proceedings.

The conversation then delves into the topic of prenuptial agreements (prenups). Sexton emphasizes the importance of prenups as a way to establish clear rules and expectations in a marriage. He explains that prenups are legally binding if crafted correctly and can provide clarity and protection for both parties. Sexton encourages normalizing prenups and viewing them as a practical and responsible approach to marriage.

Sexton continues by discussing prenuptial agreements and their purpose. He explains that prenups allow couples to define their rights and obligations in the event of a divorce. He emphasizes that prenups can be customized to fit the couple's specific needs and desires, with almost no limits on what can be included. Sexton gives an example of a prenup that included a provision where the wife would lose alimony if she gained weight during the marriage. He acknowledges that such clauses can be controversial but highlights that they are legally binding.

The conversation then shifts to the concept of soulmates and different types of infidelity. Sexton explains that not all infidelity is the same and that there are various reasons why people cheat. He mentions the "soulmate" type of infidelity, where someone believes they have found their true love outside of their marriage. Sexton notes that this type of infidelity can be particularly painful for the betrayed partner, as it questions the foundation of their relationship.

Sexton also discusses other types of infidelity, such as the "push out of the closet" type, where someone discovers their same-sex attraction and leaves their spouse for a same-sex partner. He highlights the complexities and challenges that can arise in these situations. Sexton further explores the concept of infidelity as a mistake, where someone makes a poor decision in a moment of temptation. He emphasizes that people can still love their partners deeply while making such mistakes.

The conversation then delves into the question of how much fighting is acceptable in a relationship. Sexton compares it to the question of how much sex is enough in a relationship, noting that it varies for each couple. He emphasizes the importance of understanding and accepting each other's communication styles and preferences. Sexton also mentions the significance of considering the other person's perspective and practicing empathy during conflicts.

Throughout the podcast, Sexton emphasizes the importance of maintaining respect and kindness in relationships. He discusses the challenges of balancing personal desires and needs with the commitment to a long-term partnership. Sexton also touches on the role of emotions in legal proceedings, highlighting the need for due process and fairness in cases involving child abuse allegations.

Sexton continues by describing the difficulty of being a divorce lawyer, as it requires paying attention to every detail and navigating through persuasive tactics and lies from both parties involved. He acknowledges that most people in court appear put together, but behind the scenes, it takes a rare kind of crazy to blow up in a courtroom. He emphasizes the importance of credibility in the law and how it is developed on the job.

When asked about the source of ground truth for divorce lawyers, Sexton explains that they don't have concrete data on who is lying or telling the truth. Instead, they rely on examples of misrepresentations to demonstrate that someone is a liar. He shares a personal anecdote about a case where a person lied about having an affair, which ultimately destroyed their credibility and undermined their defense against accusations of child sexual abuse.

Sexton also addresses the negative reputation that divorce lawyers sometimes have. He explains that divorce lawyers often get a bad rap because they are associated with a difficult and unpleasant chapter in someone's life. He acknowledges that divorce lawyers can be seen as amplifying conflict, but he emphasizes that good lawyers aim to minimize conflict and find resolutions that benefit their clients.

The conversation then shifts to high-profile divorces, with Sexton mentioning Kevin Costner's divorce as an example. He highlights the importance of prenuptial agreements and how they can protect individuals from financial loss in the event of a divorce. Sexton also praises Laura Wasser, Costner's lawyer, as a top professional in the field.

Fridman and Sexton discuss the importance of maintaining a positive image during a divorce and refraining from speaking negatively about one's ex-spouse. They reference Matthew McConaughey as an example of someone who handled his divorces with dignity and respect, which ultimately enhanced his public image.

The conversation delves into the topic of honesty in relationships. Sexton explains that while honesty is important, there are times when complete candor may not be the best approach. He gives examples of situations where being completely honest about someone's appearance or feelings could be hurtful and suggests finding a middle ground that addresses the concern without causing unnecessary harm.

Sexton also shares his daily routine, which includes waking up at 4 am, checking his phone for work emergencies, working out, and then diving into his legal work. He describes the intensity of being on trial and the constant pressure to perform and adapt strategically. He emphasizes the importance of discipline and setting boundaries to maintain a work-life balance.

He opens up about a personal conflict he had with Gordon Ryan, a jiu-jitsu athlete. He explains that he had a disagreement with Ryan online and said some obnoxious things to him. Sexton expresses regret for his behavior and apologizes to Ryan, acknowledging that it was wrong to speak to a young person in such a manner.

Sexton continues by emphasizing the significance of love in various aspects of life. He believes that love is a driving force behind many human actions, including wars fought for romantic love and empires falling because of it. Love is seen as a powerful motivator that influences people's decisions and actions.

The discussion then delves into the connection between love, sex, and romance. Sexton suggests that these concepts are intertwined and play a significant role in people's lives. He argues that many of the things men do, including pursuing success and wealth, are ultimately driven by the desire to attract attractive partners of the opposite sex. Sexton also addresses the phenomenon of men who claim not to care about women but constantly talk about them, suggesting that their actions may be aimed at attracting a certain type of woman.

Sexton highlights the universal nature of love and relationships, regardless of social status or wealth. He shares his observations from representing both regular individuals and celebrities, noting that the same issues of infidelity, insecurities, and fights arise in all types of relationships. Sexton emphasizes that even highly successful individuals can struggle with relationships, as there is no direct correlation between professional success and relationship skills.

Despite the challenges and pain that can arise from romantic relationships, Sexton acknowledges that people continue to pursue love. He believes that love is a great equalizer and a fundamental aspect of the human experience. Sexton expresses his admiration for individuals who take the risk of love, even if it leads to heartbreak or failure. He suggests that the pursuit of love is a beautiful mess that is worth experiencing.

Sexton also reflects on the potential positive outcomes that can arise from difficult situations, such as divorce. He shares personal experiences, including his father's battle with alcoholism, and how these challenges have shaped his life in unexpected ways. Sexton argues that even though mistakes and hardships occur, they can lead to blessings and growth. He encourages individuals going through divorce to view it as an opportunity for reinvention and personal growth.

In a thought-provoking idea, Sexton proposes the use of psychedelics, specifically psilocybin, as a transformative tool in divorce mediation. He suggests that providing divorcing couples with controlled psychedelic experiences could enhance their empathy and connection, leading to transformative conflict resolution. While acknowledging the logistical challenges and legal barriers, Sexton believes that such an approach could potentially revolutionize the divorce process.

The conversation concludes with Sexton emphasizing the importance of embracing change and finding joy and abundance in life. He shares his own experience of his ex-wife finding happiness with someone who is completely different from him, highlighting the idea that there is a lid for every pot. Sexton encourages individuals to let go of jealousy and bitterness and instead focus on finding the right match for themselves and their former partners.