Added: Oct 13, 2023
In this podcast episode, Dr. Jordan Peterson interviews Dr. Donald Hoffman, an author and cognitive neuroscientist, about his research on the nature of reality and consciousness. Dr. Hoffman challenges the traditional view that our perception accurately represents objective reality and argues that our sensory systems have evolved to provide a user interface, similar to a virtual reality headset, that simplifies and distorts our experience of the world.Dr. Hoffman begins by discussing the role of evolution in shaping our sensory systems. While many believe that evolution has shaped us to see reality as it is, Dr. Hoffman's research suggests otherwise. He explains that the fitness payoff functions, which guide the evolution of our sensory systems, do not necessarily preserve the structure of the world. In fact, the probability that a generically chosen payoff function will preserve a structure, such as a metric or total order, is essentially zero. Therefore, it is unlikely that our sensory systems accurately represent the true structure of reality.
Dr. Peterson raises the question of whether there is a higher order set of integrated constraints that serves reproduction over the long run, to which Dr. Hoffman responds that he sees evolution as shaping our sensory systems to serve as a user interface. He compares this interface to the desktop on a computer, which allows us to interact with the underlying complex reality without needing to understand its inner workings. Dr. Hoffman argues that our perception of space, time, and physical objects is a simplified and distorted representation of reality, similar to the icons on a computer screen.
The discussion then turns to the concept of consciousness. Dr. Hoffman suggests that consciousness is more fundamental than objective reality and that our current understanding of space and time is limited. He points to recent findings in high-energy theoretical physics, which suggest that space-time is not fundamental and that physicists are searching for structures beyond space-time. Dr. Hoffman proposes that consciousness is a fundamental reality and that our perception of the physical world is a result of conscious agents interacting with each other.
Dr. Peterson brings up the idea of grip, which he sees as a crucial aspect of perception and understanding. He argues that when we pick up a hammer, for example, there is a homology between our perception and the underlying reality. Dr. Hoffman counters this by stating that while there may be a causal connection between our perception and the underlying reality, there is no homomorphism of structure. He uses the analogy of a virtual reality game to illustrate his point, explaining that the pixels on the screen do not have a homomorphism with the underlying reality.
The conversation then delves into the relationship between consciousness and the world. Dr. Hoffman describes his theory of conscious agents, which posits that conscious agents have a probability space and interact with each other. He suggests that consciousness is a fundamental reality and that our perception of the physical world is a result of conscious agents interacting with each other. Dr. Peterson draws parallels between this theory and mythological accounts, which often describe three interacting causal agents or structures: a realm of potentiality, a realm of prior order, and an active agent that transforms potentiality into concrete reality.
Dr. Hoffman continues by explaining that our perception of the world is not an accurate representation of reality, but rather a simplified version that allows us to navigate and survive in our environment. He uses the example of a pen to illustrate this point, stating that our perception of the pen as a solid object is not the true nature of the pen, but rather a projection created by our consciousness.
He goes on to discuss the concept of probability space, which is the range of possible outcomes that can occur in a given situation. Dr. Hoffman argues that our consciousness exists within a probability space, and that different outcomes have different probabilities of occurring. He suggests that our goal should be to orient ourselves in a way that allows us to navigate this probability landscape effectively.
Dr. Hoffman also explores the idea of entropy, which is a measure of disorder or randomness in a system. He explains that our perception of entropy is subjective and dependent on our goals and desires. For example, if our car breaks down, our perception of the probability space around us becomes more distal, and our desired goals become more difficult to achieve.
He then discusses the concept of consciousness as the fundamental reality. He argues that our consciousness is the primary reality, and that the physical world is a projection created by our consciousness. He suggests that there is one ultimate infinite consciousness that is trying to know itself by looking at itself through different perspectives.
Dr. Hoffman acknowledges that his ideas are not widely accepted in the scientific community, but he believes that they are supported by mathematical models. He argues that every scientific theory has assumptions and limitations, and that the mathematics of a theory can reveal its scope and limits.
He also addresses objections to his theory, particularly from philosophers who argue that if evolutionary game theory accurately represents Darwin's ideas, then it cannot contradict the idea that space and time are fundamental. Dr. Hoffman responds by explaining that scientific theories have both scope and limits, and that his theory is not meant to be a final theory of everything.
Dr. Hoffman continues by explaining that his theory is based on the idea that space and time are not fundamental aspects of reality, but rather are products of our consciousness. He suggests that our perception of space and time is like a desktop interface on a computer, which simplifies and organizes information for our convenience. In reality, he argues, the world is composed of conscious agents interacting with each other, and space and time are just a way for us to make sense of these interactions.
Dr. Hoffman's theory challenges the traditional view that our senses provide us with an accurate representation of the world. He argues that our senses evolved to help us survive, not to give us an objective view of reality. Our perceptions are shaped by natural selection, and they prioritize information that is relevant to our survival. As a result, our perception of reality is a simplified and distorted version of the true nature of the world.
Dr. Hoffman uses the analogy of a computer desktop to explain his theory further. He suggests that our senses are like icons on a desktop, representing objects and events in the world. These icons are not the objects themselves, but rather simplified representations that allow us to interact with them. Similarly, our perception of reality is not the true reality, but rather a simplified and distorted version that allows us to navigate and survive in the world.
He also discusses the implications of his theory for the nature of consciousness. He argues that consciousness is not confined to the brain but is a fundamental aspect of reality. He suggests that conscious agents exist outside of space and time and interact with each other to create the world we perceive. Our brains, he argues, are just interfaces that allow us to interact with this conscious reality.
Dr. Hoffman acknowledges that his theory is controversial and goes against the prevailing scientific consensus. However, he argues that it is supported by empirical evidence from fields such as evolutionary biology and cognitive science. He also emphasizes that his theory is not meant to be the final word on the nature of reality but rather a step towards a deeper understanding.
He concludes by discussing the practical implications of his theory. He suggests that if our perception of reality is not accurate, we should be cautious in relying on it to make decisions. He also argues that his theory has implications for fields such as neuroscience and psychology, as it challenges the assumption that the brain is the source of consciousness.
